Category: Interviews

  • The Body of Light: Alexander Moore on Astral Projection, Magical Power and Survival After Death

    The Body of Light: Alexander Moore on Astral Projection, Magical Power and Survival After Death

    Alexander Moore returns to Perseus Conversations for a deep dive into one of the subjects we briefly touched upon in our previous interview: the Body of Light. You can see the interview on YouTube here, or read it here.

    Alexander is a professional occultist and one half of Practical Occult. He grew up around magic, has trained in a number of different systems under several teachers, and now teaches practical magical methods professionally.

    In this conversation we explore what the Body of Light actually is, how it differs from ordinary mental wandering and astral projection, the skills required to build one, its relationship with the astral temple, possible dangers, its role in magical practice, and the much more controversial question of whether such a structure can preserve consciousness after physical death.

    This transcript has been edited only for readability. Hesitations, repeated words, false starts, timestamps and obvious automatic-caption errors have been removed. The substance of the conversation has otherwise been retained.

    Introduction

    PAA: It’s been a few months since you were on before. Right at the end of that conversation, we briefly touched upon the subject of the Body of Light. I think that fascinated a lot of people, and I know a lot of people have gone on to investigate it. Today we’re going to go into it. But just for anyone who didn’t see that first video, do you want to give everyone a very brief background of yourself?

    Alexander: Yeah, sure. My name’s Alexander Moore. I’m a professional occultist. I am one half of the company Practical Occult.

    I grew up doing magic. I came from a family that did it. Very fortunate in that respect.

    I’ve been fortunate to train in a number of different systems under a number of really excellent mentors. Like I said, I do it full-time. I teach it.

    One of the greater joys in my life is spreading real magic that actually works and spreading the understanding that magic can, if trained properly, work at an extremely high level in a person’s life, and that it should be used to benefit a person’s life in a very tangible way.

    PAA: I think that was one of the biggest things from that first video that did really well. People were like, “Oh my God, I can actually use it.”

    Alexander: People messaged me for months. Again, thank you for having me back and having me on the first time.

    A lot of the messages were something along the lines of, “No one had ever given me permission, so to speak, to use these things.”

    You’ve got the Bardon community. They train hard. I mean every day, hours and hours a day, some of these people.

    I’ve had some of them say, “Yeah, man. I used vital force to make something happen for the first time, and it happened, and now I have a job.”

    There you go.

    PAA: Just like that. The needle can move so quickly.

    Alexander: It can, especially with all the work that some of these people have been putting in. It’s years in the making for some of them.

    So many hours in the bag.

    What Is the Body of Light?

    PAA: We touched upon the Body of Light right at the end of that conversation because you mentioned it. I was like, “What’s that?” because I hadn’t heard of it before in that context. What do you specifically mean by the Body of Light? Obviously there are different traditions with these terms, and why should a magician develop it?

    Alexander: The Body of Light is an extra-physical vessel that exists on the etheric and astral planes, as well as the mental plane and the causal plane.

    It can move up and down that. One creates it and essentially pilots it so that their out-of-body shenanigans are safer and, frankly, more productive.

    For example, for the Franz Bardon crowd, you’ll see Bardon talk about how you’re either mental wandering or you’re astral projecting.

    If you’re fully astral projecting and someone even breathes on you wrong, you’re going to die and explode and everything’s going to be horrible because all of your soul is completely out of your body.

    The Body of Light is a thing that allows you to have a dial instead of an either/or.

    You create this structure and you bounce your consciousness into it. Then you pilot it. You leave and you can do things out of your body.

    You can also, if you develop it properly, use it on its own.

    This is where, for example, in a lot of witchcraft traditions they will refer to sending the fetch.

    It’s a Body of Light.

    In fact, there are some traditions that have you make multiple.

    You can take them within you, and each one has its own purpose.

    There are some traditions that sort of come pre-built with a Body of Light.

    For example, the Italian Benandanti, those who have what’s referred to as the Lombard’s Gift, will be excellent with astral projection and out-of-body stuff.

    Essentially, the initiation into that tradition produces a Body of Light that has a concurrent connection to the energy, the witch fire, if you will, of that tradition.

    Then you have other traditions that will produce, for example, the magicians or witches that go forth in the form of an animal.

    That is a Body of Light.

    If you look at it from a Western Hermetics perspective, it’s a copy of you yourself, but better.

    You can pilot it, use it to heal yourself and others.

    You can send it out, have it learn things, come back and reabsorb it.

    It also allows the survival of the consciousness after death in a guaranteed fashion.

    A lot of magicians, both good and evil magicians, produce a Body of Light or several so that they have the ability to maintain their consciousness, memories, personality and plans post-mortem.

    Because if you do not have a Body of Light, the soul and spirit left behind are bleeding.

    Anyone who’s ever done any sort of necromancy will tell you that the first year after a person’s dead, it’s them.

    It’s them for sure.

    Then after that, the shade, the thing that’s left behind, is often just the collected memories of a person.

    They can’t learn.

    They can’t produce new things.

    They can only use the knowledge that they had in life and the perspectives that they had in life.

    It’s why a lot of necromancers will give offerings to ghosts in the form of water or fire.

    This kind of beefs up the Body of Light around the shade and can sometimes pull more of the original soul back into the shade.

    Not always.

    Sometimes the soul has gone elsewhere.

    Where exactly?

    That’s obviously debated.

    Eschatology and the afterlife are a big discussion, and I’m not a theologian.

    I’m a nuts-and-bolts, good-with-tools magician.

    I’m not here to tell you where we go when we die.

    I haven’t been there yet that I remember.

    I’m sure I have and I’ve come back a hundred times, as all of us have.

    But there you go.

    It’s an extra-etheric structure that we create intentionally through various means and we pilot.

    We can have more than one.

    We can put them in various places.

    A lot of Taoist things will put them in their abdomen.

    It’s often said the Golden Immortal Fetus is a form of this, but not exactly this.

    In some of the traditions I’m trained in, you keep your Body or Bodies of Light in your lower dantian for when you need them.

    A lot of people who send the fetch will keep them in the heart centre for when they need them.

    I’ve also seen traditions where people kept them in vessels like statues or dolls outside themselves.

    In fact, it’s often like the Koschei the Deathless myth where the evil wizard puts his soul in an egg, which is in a bird, which is in a fox, which is in a hole, which is grown over by a tree, which is on an island, which is in a castle.

    Unless you can get to that egg, you can never truly kill him.

    There’s something to that in the sense that it’s an immortality practice.

    If you’ve created the Body of Light properly, it has its own metabolism that produces its own etheric, astral, mental and Akashic energies.

    You create the engine and it works.

    You no longer need to survive, hypothetically, off astral vampirism.

    A lot of evil sorcerers after death are said to survive off the same level of vampirism they were probably practising in life.

    That’s how they maintain their personality outside of what I refer to as soul bleed.

    But if you have the Body of Light created, you needn’t do that.

    This is where you have your Secret Chiefs, if you will, your Great White Brotherhood types.

    Again, I can’t say for sure that those groups of people exist.

    Certainly, this is anecdotal, but I have encountered crystallised Bodies of Light of magicians from various places and various eras.

    I’ve even encountered the crystallised Body of Light of a magician I knew in life who was like, “Look, I did it. This is a thing.”

    He told me where to find something.

    He told me, “I’m going to die. I will visit you and I will tell you where to find a thing in my home. This is how I’m going to prove it.”

    That’s what he did.

    I found the thing, and it was there.

    It wasn’t that I saw him in a dream.

    I saw him in waking life as clearly as I would see anyone else in front of me.

    Bilocation and a Post-Mortem Encounter

    PAA: That’s interesting. So you’re walking around and there he was?

    Alexander: Yeah.

    The thing is, the Body of Light is also the engine for bilocation.

    Mechanically speaking, magicians who can bilocate, that’s how they do it.

    Their Body of Light is crystallised that hard.

    Of course, this requires training towards that end.

    You create your Body of Light and then you pilot your Body of Light.

    When you’re in that Body of Light, you pour a ton of vital energy into it to the point where it becomes more solid, where it can produce poltergeist activity and then eventually be seen by people.

    It’s assumed, for example, that Jesus had a very, very well-developed Body of Light.

    That was how he could do the things that he did after death.

    PAA: That’s an epic introduction to the Body of Light. Especially having that firsthand experience with one of your previous mentors. They previously said, “Okay, this is what I’m going to do.” How long after they actually passed on did they come and see you?

    Alexander: Ninety days to the day.

    That’s what he said.

    He said, “Ninety days to the day after I die, I will be there.”

    So I was waiting the whole day like, “Okay, today’s the day.”

    PAA: That’s kind of even more epic, that they’re able to keep a good track of time.

    Alexander: In a way it is.

    It’s kind of funny.

    All of these things, yes, it’s incredible and it’s really impressive.

    But if you look at the fact that he was nuts-and-bolts building this thing for like 40 years, it’s really not as impressive.

    He had been so accustomed to piloting this thing out of his body.

    I had only ever seen him do this once, but other people who knew him were like, “Oh, he can be in two places at once.”

    That’s how they would say it.

    He could actually be bilocating.

    So I was like, well, if anyone can do it, he’s going to be able to do it.

    But also, it’s all just a meditative practice.

    That’s the funny thing about all of these amazing high-level magical feats.

    It’s just like anything else in life.

    It’s built brick by brick.

    Building the Body of Light

    PAA: Coming to how it’s built, on your Practical Occult website you have your curriculum and it’s a capstone skill, a capstone course. Essentially you need the things that come before it. For those that don’t know, should we go into a little background of what you might need in terms of structuring such a thing?

    Alexander: For the Bardon heads out there, what you need is to be able to transfer your consciousness.

    You need, at the very least, mastery of vital, astral and mental energy.

    Personally, in my curriculum, I separate astral and etheric energy as different things.

    One doesn’t strictly need this.

    I just find it helpful.

    Ideally, if you have access to Akasha and Non-Dual Light, that speeds the process up considerably.

    But that’s really all you need, aside from your focus exercises and things of that nature, and the willingness to spend the time.

    You’re looking at probably having to put, conservatively, 20 hours into building the Body of Light to the point where you can bounce back and forth.

    You also have resources like Clint Marsh’s The Mentalist’s Handbook, where he teaches you how to build it with just etheric energy.

    Of course, focus and the transfer of consciousness and things like that are also involved, which he teaches in his own way.

    An invaluable book, in my opinion.

    PAA: I’ve got that. That is a little gem.

    Alexander: It is.

    He’s unique about the way he teaches it.

    I’ve never seen anyone teach it like Clint does.

    He’s a real one.

    He’s so whimsical and optimistic.

    I love at the very end of his book where he’s basically like, “If I didn’t think you could use this for evil, I wouldn’t bother saying this, but don’t be a dick.”

    Because it’s true.

    You can run amok.

    But that’s really all you need.

    The reason why I call it a capstone skill is much like vaulting.

    It’s a thing that takes you from a true beginner to essentially an intermediate, competent magician.

    Every competent magician should have the Body of Light.

    Every competent magician should be able to vault.

    They should be able to send thoughts into other people.

    They should be able to send their consciousness out.

    They should have access to all of what Bardon had in Book One and everything that I teach in mine.

    Or, for example, what Bob Smith teaches in his Master Course.

    We talk about these being the 60 skills you need.

    He’s not wrong.

    That is correct.

    Wonderful teacher for doing that.

    But truly, it’s important to have.

    What’s interesting is that much like all these other skills, when you break it down, pretty much everybody has this.

    They call it something different, but they all have a containment unit that they can use to safely leave their body.

    A lot of what it is is protection.

    If your Body of Light is damaged, you can repair it.

    If it’s destroyed, which it can be, you can repair it.

    Your soul isn’t destroyed.

    You can, for example, astral project using something like the Monroe Institute’s rope method where you pretend you’re climbing a rope and eventually pop out.

    That takes a long time and you’re not as strong.

    You’re not as solid.

    It’s sort of like an extreme version of mental wandering, but you are vulnerable.

    Whereas with a Body of Light, there are plenty of traditions that have spells and spirits and tools to weaponise it.

    You look at an Eastern European vrykolak, for example.

    They’ll lie down and project into their Body of Light, but they’ll be holding a knife on their chest and that knife will be a sword in the astral.

    Or, to go back to the Benandanti, they’ll hold a fennel stalk and that fennel stalk will become a weapon in the astral and they’ll be able to use it quite effectively.

    These things are taught all over.

    Some traditions focus more on the here and now, how they’re effective and how they help.

    Some focus more on the eschatology: this is what you build for after death and why you should have it.

    It’s all important because it’s all very useful.

    My father would always say it can do anything you can do.

    Because it can do anything you can do and it’s part of you, in great duress you can be like:

    “Oh no, I’m in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and someone I care about is in danger in Beijing. I will send this to them to protect them while I figure things out on my end.”

    It can be extremely helpful.

    Now, there’s a caveat.

    It has a much simpler, stripped-down version of your personality.

    It doesn’t have the same finesse you do if it’s just on its own and you’re not piloting it.

    It has an echo of you because on its own it really isn’t anything but a construct.

    If you let it fade, it will fade.

    I will say it does appear — and I can’t really say for sure — that if you build it to a certain point, it will always be there through various lives.

    I’ve even had students who were like, “Oh, I tried the Body of Light and I already have it, but it looks different.”

    At first I was like, “What do you mean?”

    It’s a little strange.

    In one case, this guy was with me in person and we both projected at the same time.

    I was like, “Oh shit, it does not look like you.”

    My friend, you are not an old Chinese man.

    That really must have been you once upon a time.

    It’s weird because from that he was able to absorb a lot of knowledge of Taoist sorcery that he otherwise should not have had.

    When you did some research, you were like, “Oh yeah, that’s a real thing.”

    Some people are lucky enough to have something pre-packaged in that way.

    Risks of the Body of Light

    PAA: That’s interesting. It sounds like it’s all upsides. Let’s talk about some of the possible risks or difficulties someone might have in building it, or once they’ve got it, in the activity of using it.

    Alexander: There is a camp of people that are very anti-Body of Light, and they’re not wrong in the way they talk about it.

    They’re like, “That’s a good way to become a ghost that’s bound to the world.”

    They’re very much like, you should allow yourself to be put on the reincarnative wheel, or if you haven’t achieved enlightenment or whatever, you shouldn’t focus on that because that sticks you here.

    It’s too material.

    I’ve heard that.

    But then they have the Rainbow Body and it kind of does the same thing, except it dissolves your physical body.

    Again, I do not know that I possess the Rainbow Body.

    I don’t believe that I do.

    I have not seen the Rainbow Body in action, although I do know someone who is trying to build it.

    So I guess I’ll see if he dissolves into rainbow light when he dies 40 years from now or whatever.

    But it does seem like those people feel as though the Western method of the Body of Light is too grounded in the world, in worldliness, and grounded in what some people I’ve talked to describe as a large hubris.

    “How dare you decide to stay on?”

    My retort is, well, if you are accustomed to travelling to other realms, for example the planetary spheres, heaven or hell realms, elemental kingdoms, which the Bardonists among us will be very familiar with, try travelling there in your Body of Light.

    It’s much more vivid.

    If created well, the Body of Light will give you that feeling of:

    “I’m literally there.”

    One downside, though, is because you have that feeling of “I’m literally there,” you can do some things that Bardon warns about in his second book.

    He’s basically like, don’t have sex with the mermaid.

    Just don’t do it.

    You can, if that’s what you choose.

    I would not recommend it.

    But you can bring things back with you.

    You may not cleanse and purify your Body of Light correctly.

    Your Body of Light can become evil if you live a vicious life.

    There are also traditions that will not necessarily bind you, but you’ve created this witch-body.

    One of my old teachers just referred to it as the witch body.

    For her, everything was witch-hyphen-thing.

    The witch heart.

    The witch brain.

    The witch body.

    The witch hand.

    The witch’s foot.

    For example, if you wanted to curse someone, you would awaken the witch’s foot, which is part of your Body of Light.

    You would overlay it over yourself and step on someone else’s footprint and send a dark version, essentially, of Akashic energy in the form of the evil eye through the footprint, through the echo of that person, through their memory and then into their body.

    That was a way she would say, “Yes, do this.”

    Looking at it now, I would never sit her down and be like, “Oh yes, it is the Akashic force that you’re using.”

    She’d just say, “That’s the witch power.”

    Different traditions, different lexicon.

    English was certainly not her first language, and I was lucky she spoke as much of it as she did.

    In general, there are some traditions where it’s like, yes, you create these external bodies and then after you die you go on the Wild Hunt or you go into the court of this thing.

    This is no different, by the way, than when Bardon talks about a lot of magicians going to the planetary schools and one by one training and learning there and graduating into other things.

    Or, for example, some of the apocryphal idea that if you’re a magician who works with demons, they’ll enslave you after death and you’ll become a demon in their legion.

    Well, sometimes.

    But there are magicians, for example the late Jake Stratton-Kent, where that was what he wanted and that was what he aspired towards.

    To each their own.

    By his own admission, he wanted to become something like a spirit from the Grimorium Verum.

    If you know, you know.

    That can be a downside unless you realise that you as the magician have sovereignty.

    If, for example, you have access to your own Akasha, you can dissolve the chains of fate.

    You can dissolve the threads of pacts and bindings.

    Just as you can dissolve, if we’re being honest, the fate, joy and progress of other people or things.

    You can say no.

    For example, you look at Bardon’s second book or third book. He talks about the letter H as a fate letter.

    Yeah.

    You can change destiny, if given permission by Divine Providence.

    That’s Bardon’s caveat.

    “I’m not telling you you can. God’s telling you you can.”

    And I’m like, well, again, I love you, Franzie B, and one day I’m going to meet you in the afterlife and you’re probably going to hate me and that’s okay.

    But he was kind of like, yes, you can change people’s fates, but only if God lets you.

    Unless you’re one of those evil magicians who just does this to people.

    So God lets them, but not you?

    I’m never going to have an interview with you guys without poking a hole in Franzie B.

    He’s my guy.

    I’d love to sit and chill with the man, but I don’t think he’d break bread with me.

    But the point is, you can go, “Okay, fine. I don’t want this fate, or I don’t want this fate for a loved one.”

    For example, for all those listening, if you have a loved one who’s very sick, you can use your access to Akasha, or the Kabbalistic letter H, or a number of other forces that alter or dissolve fate.

    You can go:

    “Show me their death.”

    “Show me the pathway to do this.”

    We know how to do these things.

    We can project into the future.

    We can project into the ball above the head and see what’s going on.

    This is also the mechanism behind divination, broadly speaking.

    If we can do this, and we’ve all done these things, and you see someone who’s suffering, you can use your Akashic energy.

    You can dissolve those threads of potential and, if you’re good enough, probably steer them into something better.

    So too can you do this for yourself near your death.

    There are many occultists from various traditions who, when their bags are being packed — to quote Professor Charles Porterfield — ask what percentage of your bags are already packed?

    Legend, Porterfield. One of the best living conjurers today.

    You’ll see a lot of magicians, witches, shamans, everyone, start preparing.

    An old teacher would say, “I’m building my house on the other side.”

    And she did build a house on the other side.

    That’s the thing.

    You can go there.

    She left me a sigil.

    I can go and talk to her whenever I want.

    That’s interesting, but also that’s nothing new.

    That’s another funny thing I bring up to people.

    Any fairy tale you’ve ever read, it behoves you as an occultist to reverse-engineer it.

    Go:

    “How could I do that with what I know?”

    “How can I do that with what I understand how to do?”

    Once you hit a wall where you’re like, “I don’t know how to do that,” yes, you do.

    You do.

    I promise you do.

    If you’re any good, you do.

    You’re just not used to thinking laterally.

    Underestimating the Body of Light

    PAA: So, to bring that back to the Body of Light, perhaps one misconception is actually underplaying its ability?

    Alexander: Yes.

    If, for example, the Body of Light can produce poltergeist activity if trained correctly — and it can — and having read The Mentalist’s Handbook, you see Clint Marsh’s coin trick.

    Instead of doing that with your body, you do it with your Body of Light.

    You start by using astral and etheric energy to condense hard enough around a coin to tap it a little bit.

    Most people will do that exercise and they’ll get the coin to move once, which is amazing, and go:

    “Holy shit, I did it. This is so cool.”

    And they’ll never do it again.

    Which is fine.

    I’m not saying you need to spend your life learning telekinesis.

    In fact, I think that’s kind of a fool’s errand because of the thousands of hours you need to put into it to be able to do anything superhero-level.

    There’s more to life.

    But much like ghosts and discarnate spirits can, with a big boost of energy, knock something over, so too can you in your Body of Light.

    You can ramp it up and condense.

    That’s why a lot of the Taoist condensing exercises can be done in the Body of Light for a different kind of thing.

    You could, I don’t know, shove something over.

    How useful it is to you is really up to you.

    Most people who bilocate will do so at great energetic cost to themselves and for something that’s very important.

    I say most because there are magicians out there who just do whatever for whatever reason, and to assume that’s not true is naive.

    But the misconception is that it’s only for one of these things, and that there is a lowbrow use of it in a material sense whereas you should only focus on the spiritually enlightened part of it.

    Supposing that’s true, that’s actually a faster path, which is funny because most people will tell you the material path, the path of the sorcerer, is fast but it costs this or that.

    Not so much.

    Again, 20 hours and you probably have your Body of Light roughly good.

    What does that mean?

    Fifteen minutes a day?

    Twenty hours is not that hard to do.

    You’re looking at it in a couple of months at the very low end.

    You can really get it.

    You’ll have that amazing astral projection experience.

    Your psychic stuff will be better.

    Your dreams will be better.

    Everything will be great.

    Then you’re like, “Cool, now I’m going to think about Hermetic axioms and heresies and go waste time being a Gnostic bishop and things of that nature.”

    I have a very low opinion of Gnostic bishops.

    Ask anybody.

    But truly, survival post-death is extremely important, but that isn’t all it’s for.

    Much like anything else, you’re limiting yourself in the delight you can have from these things if you don’t use them for cool shit in your life.

    Plus it’s fun.

    Astral projection is fun and cool.

    You should do it because it’s fun.

    Clarity and Vividness

    PAA: I think as well, from looking at your material, maybe coming from a Bardon perspective, the boost in clarity is huge. You can have mental wandering that over time gets better and better and more clear, but this can really give you, in the here and now rather than ten years down the line, that vividness and the feeling of being there. That can have a huge impact upon your practice, your dedication and the time you’re willing to put into this stuff when you’ve got that kind of experience.

    Alexander: One hundred percent.

    The Body of Light and the Astral Temple

    PAA: One other thing I know you were talking about, and I think this is a good combination and possibly links onto some things people will talk about in the Discord: do you want to talk about the combination of this and working in this way within your astral temple?

    Alexander: Yeah, of course.

    This makes the astral temple work far stronger.

    It lets you engage with it a lot better.

    It lets you train the Body of Light a lot better.

    Any of your spirit guides, patron spirits or your spirit court, if you will, can be accessed in your astral temple and they can help train you.

    They can help outfit your Body of Light.

    It can essentially be a place where it is stored.

    You may store it in your lower dantian, but realistically the Body of Light is you and so is your astral temple.

    In some ways your astral temple is a Body of Light, because a lot of magicians who have not produced the Body of Light but have done a lot of astral-temple work, when they die they’ll find themselves there in that little pocket realm.

    They actually built that thing.

    Some people go, “Oh, there’s already one here.”

    Yeah.

    One exercise that I give in my own coursework with the astral temple is you’re in it and then you expand it around you physically.

    You’re in it and you feel it around you and you open your eyes and expand it.

    One day you’ll eventually be able to see it very vividly, but you don’t need to see it vividly to get it done.

    Then it’s like you have dominion over the entire room or building over which you’ve expanded it.

    The Body of Light can do a similar thing when you’re walking around in your internal temple like that.

    Of course, there are very high-level magicians who can produce the internal temple in the same way that you can bilocate the Body of Light, where other people will see it around you and around them.

    This is detailed, for example, in Dion Fortune’s novels.

    The Sea Priestess is one where that’s essentially what is going on.

    Those who’ve read the novel will know what I’m talking about.

    That’s how it moves together.

    In the same sense, if you project your Body of Light into someone else’s internal temple, you can have more impact there.

    Not that you can’t have impact if you just project your mental body.

    Of course you can.

    This is where things like remote influence come in.

    But your astral body, your Body of Light, is much more effective.

    You bring the whole thing.

    Again, there’s safety there.

    If it’s hurt or destroyed, you just snap back into yourself and you’re good.

    It’s actually why the internal temple is so important for layers of safety.

    You project outside your Body of Light, you’re destroyed, you go back into the internal temple and then back into you.

    That stopgap in between can capture negative energies and spirits that are trying to follow you.

    PAA: So that’s a safety measure for when you go out exploring. For anyone who’s into this stuff, it almost seems like a no-brainer to start getting involved in this.

    How Long Does It Take?

    PAA: Let’s say someone’s watching this video and you’ve given a timeline of about 20 hours, but that’s 20 hours considering they’ve already got the other skills. For someone starting from scratch, what are we talking about to get to the point where they can notice the difference between normal mental-wandering experiments and actual Body of Light experience?

    Alexander: Provided you have all the other stuff, it depends on how long it takes you to build the other skills.

    If you do my method, it’s the same thing I said before: around six months to get everything under your belt if you’re practising diligently.

    If you get The Mentalist’s Handbook and do Clint Marsh’s method purely, I’m not sure.

    I never timed that one with people.

    Probably shorter because he has a different, more fast-tracked way to it.

    Not that it’s any less effective.

    Again, the book is a true gem.

    He puts so much information in there that you rarely find connected to all sorts of other things.

    I think you probably get it faster with his method, but maybe not as completely as with mine.

    There’s also a book called Between the Gates by Mark Stavish.

    I will give the man that flower.

    That’s an excellent book about producing the Body of Light in itself, although it doesn’t go into anything you can actually do with it.

    It’s very much like, yeah, you have this thing and that’s great, and now you can survive the second death or whatever.

    But he doesn’t talk about the cool shit you can do with it.

    Unfortunately, very few people do.

    You have people who are good with tools and they’re looked down upon for looking at it as a craft, a practice and a technology.

    Or you’ve got people who are a little bit hoity-toity and think that they’re better than infecting the material world.

    I will always have resentment for such people and I will make it public.

    But like I said, six months from scratch to really get it as part of my curriculum, if you do the method and diligently practise.

    This is also where I differ from Bardon.

    He wants you to take more time with each step.

    Especially when I have individual students, I’ll push them out of their comfort zone.

    In my Principles of Magic Discord, we occasionally have live practice groups.

    Some days I’ll be like, “Yeah, we’re doing vaulting today.”

    People will be like, “This is my first class.”

    I’m like, “Great. Awesome. Let’s vault. Let’s do it.”

    I’ll have people do it and their vaults will sometimes work.

    Not all the time.

    But you can do more than you think.

    Speedrunning the Body of Light

    PAA: So if you really sat yourself down and said, “I’ve done the vital, astral and mental energy lessons, I’ve done the transfer-of-consciousness lesson, and I’m skipping ahead to the Body of Light lesson,” you could potentially go straight for it?

    Alexander: You could probably pull it off in 15, 20, 40 hours cumulative if you really wanted to whole-ass it.

    You need about five hours of each basic energy to really feel it and be able to do it.

    Again, these are rough estimates.

    Some people are naturally more gifted and can just do it.

    Some people take a little longer.

    If it takes five hours for each base element, about five hours cumulative for the transfer-of-consciousness technique to really hit, then you’re good.

    Then you’re right on to building the Body of Light.

    There’s a lot of other stuff in the course that you’re not going to know how to do, a lot of other energies you’re not going to know how to generate.

    But if that’s your goal, you can speedrun that.

    PAA: It’s pretty amazing really. Just six months, three months of focused effort and there you are.

    Alexander: If you’re diligent.

    That’s the caveat.

    If you sit down and do an hour a day of practice and your only goal is to build a Body of Light, you’ve got 60 minutes.

    Ten minutes a day of each base energy.

    Ten minutes of transference of consciousness.

    That’s 40 minutes and you’ve got 20 minutes of just working to build the Body of Light.

    Let’s say you wanted to start it all on day one.

    Would you be super clean with those energies?

    Absolutely not.

    But after a month you’re generating all the energies cleanly.

    At that point, if you’re a hard-ass and you’re like, “I’m going to spend a whole hour over the course of a day on this thing,” you can be doing 15 minutes here, ten minutes here, five minutes here, 30 minutes here.

    Just building it up and building it up.

    Then doing what I say.

    You build it the way I teach it and then you bounce your consciousness back and forth between you and it until you pop out in it.

    Then you walk around the room.

    That’s how you train it.

    As we see, for example, in Clint Marsh’s stuff, you walk around the room, then you walk around your house, then you walk around your neighbourhood, then you walk around the world.

    After that point, you’re pretty good.

    Scary and Remarkable Experiences

    PAA: We’ve established that if you want to do it, it’s very achievable if you put your mind to it and focus on these things. In the time you’ve been sharing these methods, what stand out to you as some of the most remarkable experiences people have had, and also possibly some of the scariest or most dangerous experiences?

    Alexander: I’ll go with scariest first.

    Two things come to mind.

    One, they realise that the world is a dark forest.

    For most of our species’ history, travel was dangerous.

    There were bad people on the road.

    If you’re a weird tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist like me, there were monsters on the road.

    You had to be very good at protecting yourself, very lucky or know the back roads.

    There are monsters in the astral.

    There are bad people.

    Is it behind every corner?

    No.

    That’s the thing.

    You can be astral projecting, walking around your whole neighbourhood, going into the city, going wherever, and be totally fine for years.

    Then one day you turn a wrong corner and there’s something you’ve never seen before.

    That’s why it’s important to have other magic, protective amulets, spirits, things like that.

    You’re like, “Oh, what the fuck is that?”

    Or you see something that’s like, “Hey, can I touch you? I want to touch you. Can I touch you?”

    It will try and you’ll feel this visceral:

    “Oh no. No, no, no. You cannot.”

    You flee and it chases you.

    I’ve had students be like, “Oh no, this shit’s very real. It plays for keeps.”

    The other side is the thing that magic always gives: agency.

    There’s the bone-chilling fear sometimes of what you can do.

    Imagine you have real astral projection.

    Mental wandering and remote viewing are wonderful.

    Even people like Lyn Buchanan and others have been like, “Yeah, you can know people’s secrets. You can know the truth about things. You can influence people.”

    You’re doing that and you’re eavesdropping in a board meeting of some company.

    If you think certain companies don’t hire psychics to do inter-company espionage, you’re also a fool.

    You’re sitting there and you’re like:

    “I can go wherever I want to go.”

    At first it’s fun because you’re like, “Oh yeah, I’m spying on my friend. This is funny.”

    Then you’re like, wait a minute.

    I wonder…

    Curiosity will get you.

    This is where I disagree with Bardon.

    The Great White Brotherhood is not going to come and stomp a mud hole in you if you mess around and do something dirty.

    They won’t.

    Nothing will.

    No one will stop you.

    No one’s coming to save you.

    No one’s coming to stop you.

    A lot of my private students have had to sit with me and genuinely work out the real, visceral feeling of:

    “I can do anything.”

    “No one’s going to stop me.”

    “I can know things.”

    “I can do bad things.”

    It’ll humble you.

    I say this all the time: you don’t know who you are until your back’s been against a wall.

    You can talk all the shit you want about how you would never, and how you’re a good person and how you’re enlightened.

    “Oh, I’ve had access to my Non-Dual Light and I would never…”

    Okay.

    Sure you wouldn’t.

    But what if you could?

    It’s the same thing where if someone is a pacifist and they’re not capable of extraordinary violence, they’re just useless.

    They’re not a pacifist.

    Their choice holds weight when they could do otherwise.

    You will now have all the weight to hold.

    There’s a reason why folklorically most sorcerers are bad people.

    There’s a reason why the magician is not trusted.

    There’s also a reason why for most of history people have made these techniques seem much harder than they are or much less accessible than they are.

    I’ve had other magicians genuinely come at me because I’m putting into the world, for fun and profit, all these techniques that you can train without having to join a lodge and kiss anyone’s ass and talk to Frater So-and-So about how wise they are.

    A big part of that, to be real, is that I wouldn’t have passed muster in a lot of those lodges just given my personality.

    I’m a little too spicy.

    They would have been like, “You are not to be trusted.”

    But I put it out there because I’d rather democratise all this in the age that we live in.

    Those are the things people have seen that are horrifying or personally confronting.

    What’s wonderful is a sense of liberation.

    My students do not fear death.

    That is an extraordinarily powerful thing.

    If you are not afraid to die, you’re free to live.

    That’s huge.

    Normally the only people you see that from are people who say:

    “I was climbing a mountain and almost fell and everything came into crystal clear focus.”

    Or:

    “I got in this car accident and everything flashed before me and I knew what my purpose was.”

    Same thing.

    You will know.

    You’ll be like:

    “I touched God and I am whole.”

    Crazy stuff.

    Wonderful stuff.

    I’ve had students in genuine tears be like:

    “Everything makes sense now. This is so great. Thank you so much.”

    But oftentimes those are all in the same conversation.

    “I saw a monster.”

    “I am a monster.”

    “I am whole.”

    Thirty-minute conversation.

    Then I tell them:

    “Cool. Now you’re intermediate.”

    And they’re like:

    “What?”

    There’s more.

    There’s so much more.

    It never ends.

    Now you’re in the club.

    There are just as many truly evil things you can do with the Body of Light as there are good.

    I’m not going to go into detail on that.

    Anything you’ve heard of — read myths, read stories, read fantasy novels — and ask:

    “How would I do that?”

    “How could I?”

    Because it makes you a better magician.

    Makes you smarter.

    It gets you thinking right about the skill.

    How to use your abilities.

    The Dark Forest and the Second Death

    PAA: That cold, clear awakening you described — the dark forest is a great image for that. It’s so vast and there’s so much out there, and you don’t necessarily want to make yourself known because as soon as you do, the bigger monster can come along.

    Alexander: Sure.

    Another thing a few students have said melancholically to me is that when they have this, they realise almost no one else does.

    They’ll survive the second death and most people they know won’t.

    That weighs on them.

    PAA: That’s an interesting one. It’s sort of a roll of the dice. If you jump on the wheel, then in most cases there goes the memory. Is that a good bet? Or do we hang on to this personality and crystallise this one?

    Alexander: That’s the thing.

    You look at it and you’re like:

    “People I care about, great friends, I will endure past them.”

    It’s one of the reasons why a lot of yogis and mystics practise detachment.

    They’re like:

    “I’ve got to be present when I’m present, but not let it get to me.”

    It’s funny, actually.

    There are theories through certain Franz Bardon letter-magic forces that you can use this to create a Body of Light that is essentially like an angel.

    Like Enoch became Metatron.

    Bob Smith, for example, and I have discussed this.

    Some people believe the Egyptian gods or other gods could have been this.

    Not all of them, surely.

    But Osiris was a man and then wasn’t.

    Odin was a man and then wasn’t.

    It’s very possible this can turn you into something else if that’s your goal.

    A lot of witches — true witches, which I distinguish from Wicca — will be like, “Yes, I’m cultivating to become something else.”

    I met someone who I often reference vaguely.

    He referred to himself as a follower of the Dharma of the Devil Tiger.

    He was cultivating to be a demon.

    Because he was like:

    “This is what I want.”

    There are Taoist yin alchemists and evil immortals that are like:

    “Yep. Going to be a demon. It’s going to be great.”

    If you’re a Big Trouble in Little China enthusiast, Lo Pan, right?

    His Body of Light was extremely well developed.

    Use that as an example.

    How did he do it?

    If he had all those centuries of life and he practised, of course he’d be able to do those things.

    PAA: I love it. We’ve got an eighties reference in the Body of Light interview.

    Alexander: For the listeners, if you have not seen Big Trouble in Little China, it’s the best documentary on Taoist sorcery.

    Just reverse-engineer each one of those skills and you’re good.

    PAA: Actually, yes. Unironically, yes.

    How Difficult Is the Body of Light Really?

    PAA: We’ve established that this is not a far-out skill that’s necessarily going to take two decades if you want to do it. It does come with some soul-searching as to whether you want to crystallise this personality or roll the dice, but the possibilities are literally unlimited in terms of what you can do with this stuff. Is there anything else we haven’t covered in terms of the Body of Light that you think people should know or that would inform them about this sort of technology?

    Alexander: Realistically, not especially.

    I would just caution people, if you have multiple traditions, if you’re fortunate enough to be able to cross-train, truly not to go to your teachers and be like:

    “Oh yes, actually that’s the Body of Light.”

    “And in fact, that’s not the filia, or that’s not whatever.”

    They’ll just slap you upside the head and be like:

    “Shut up. Work harder.”

    Train and be diligent always in all things.

    I think that’s the biggest takeaway.

    Keep in mind that there were people for a long time who kept these things not just hidden but under the guise that they were harder than they are to do.

    There’s a reason for that.

    As much of a knee-jerk reaction as a younger me had in terms of vindictiveness — “Well, I wouldn’t have passed muster” — it was only because I grew up where I grew up, in the family I grew up in, that I even had access to these things.

    But once you gain it, it’s kind of funny.

    Once you have it, you can think about all the people you’d never want to have it, who you would never trust with it.

    At the same time, magic seeks magic.

    Magic seeks people.

    It seeks to fill the vessel.

    It wants to be practised.

    It wants to be known.

    The “information wants to be free” adage of the nineties hackers.

    It wants to be known and it wants to be practised.

    This is a spiritual technology that we are designed to do.

    Anyone can do this.

    I want to stress that.

    Anyone can do this.

    People may scoff at the idea of, I don’t know, a Walmart cashier building a Body of Light.

    But then I would also ask how many listeners to various podcasts are essentially underperforming in their own lives.

    This, as well as other spiritual technologies, is increasingly the difference between a great life and no life at all.

    If you have these unfair advantages, you can use them.

    You can, for example, overlay the Body of Light over yourself and produce a stronger aura than you otherwise could.

    Everyone who’s done any kind of energy-work training or internal-power stuff knows this.

    “I can use the electric line of force to big myself up.”

    “I can magnetise people.”

    “I can do all sorts of stuff.”

    You can do it ten times stronger if you overlay the Body of Light.

    The potential for self-healing is also crazy because your Body of Light needs to look like an idealised version of you.

    If you’re injured, you overlay it over the injured part and you vital-energy dump into it.

    You’re going to heal orders of magnitude quicker than you otherwise could.

    That’s a freebie for the people listening.

    Again, we all get hurt.

    PAA: Absolutely. I think those two things alone are huge recommendations for this practice. Literally almost anything that we can think of that we would be doing, it’s ten times more with the Body of Light.

    Alexander: Absolutely.

    Again, the Body of Light is one of those things where whether you build it yourself, you’re initiated into a tradition that gives it to you, or you have a spirit give it to you, there are pros and cons.

    You don’t really get to tailor it in the same way.

    But if you’ve already had it and you’re initiated and spirits help augment it, some of us have multiple.

    Some of us have multiple for various reasons.

    Some of us just have one and it looks like an amalgamation of everything we’ve done.

    You’ll scry someone and you’ll see their Body of Light and you’re like:

    “Wow, you’re an eight-limbed Taoist sorcerer, Hermetic magician, Wicca person.”

    It’s just everything.

    It can be kind of overwhelming because it has everything.

    I have a friend who lives local to me.

    He does various tantric things from a North Indian perspective, and his Body of Light just has all these arms.

    You’re like:

    “Wow. I want to high-five each one of them.”

    Initiation, Lineage and the Second Death

    PAA: You say there we can build it or your tradition can basically hand you one as part of the initiation. In the latter case, how does that affect your death in terms of the second death?

    Alexander: I can’t say for sure because none of us really can.

    But what they will tell you is it links you to that tradition.

    If you’re clever and you understand that you can change these things through use of these powers, it certainly wouldn’t necessarily have to.

    But maybe that’s what you want.

    Maybe you love a tradition that you’re in so much that you want to be a lineage protector of it.

    Look at Taoist immortals.

    Your teacher’s teacher’s teacher.

    You go to their skull in a temple and you’re like:

    “Give me the wisdom.”

    They’re there fully realised.

    Their Body of Light is there, but also the current of the tradition is holding it.

    It can be both.

    It depends on what you want.

    Historically speaking, I don’t know how many options people were aware of having.

    Maybe you’re born in Tibet.

    You’re going to go either with Bön or Tibetan Buddhism, depending on the century in question.

    Then maybe you’ll get it, maybe you won’t.

    Maybe you’re drip-fed information and then the monks are like:

    “Yeah, he’s not the one.”

    Or:

    “Okay, cool. We’ll tell you how to do this near the end of your life because it’s useful.”

    Those traditions are amazing, but whether you will get the technology is a whole other question.

    You’re sort of a cog in a system.

    PAA: Now we’ve got this information open. It’s the Napster of esoteric information. That’s a reference that’s dating me. But now this information is out. You might be given this as part of a tradition, but if you’re aware of what Akasha and Non-Dual Light can do, can you kind of receive the gift and unattach it from the source?

    Alexander: Yeah.

    You can backdoor things.

    That’s the thing people don’t like to hear either.

    This is anecdotal.

    I’ve known people who’ve used their Body of Light to project into certain mandalas and get empowerments.

    Then they went to lineage holders of various traditions and were like:

    “I got this empowerment. Look.”

    They do the mantra and the lineage holder is like:

    “Yep. You sure did. That is absolutely the empowerment.”

    Then they’re like:

    “I got it by myself with the thing.”

    I’ve seen this conversation happen because they were like, “I want you to come with me and see this.”

    Then that person’s like:

    “Yeah. Don’t tell anyone that’s possible.”

    PAA: Keep the system going.

    Alexander: Now, for context, you can also go in there and be told no by the spirit.

    You can.

    In this case, this person was very diligent.

    They’d been doing a lot of mantras.

    They’d been doing the practice.

    They just hadn’t had access to the empowerment and weren’t going to have access to it for a calendar year.

    They’re like:

    “Let me give this a go.”

    But just like everything else, if you have spirits on your side, they can make introductions for you to other spirits.

    Pressure-Testing Visionary Experiences

    There is one caveat.

    As with everything else, you need to ground your visions and your visionary capacity in reality.

    Just because you have the Body of Light does not mean you understand everything you’re seeing.

    It does not mean that you are completely lucid all the time.

    It’s much like dreaming.

    People who practise lucid dreaming will also have a very easy time doing Body of Light stuff because it’s kind of the same.

    You can be astral projecting or in your Body of Light and just lose focus.

    You drift and you’re back in your body.

    Happens to all of us.

    Anyone who says it doesn’t is lying.

    So just because you’re like:

    “Oh, I went and got a Kurukulla empowerment from Kurukulla.”

    Okay, cool.

    Is your practice more powerful objectively?

    Does it hit different?

    Can you do things with it that you could not do before?

    If the answer is no, maybe you did, maybe you didn’t.

    Can you go to the Tibetan Buddhist in question and go:

    “Did it work?”

    And they’ll maybe sheepishly go:

    “Yeah, actually you did get it.”

    Or will they go:

    “No. What are you talking about? That’s insane.”

    That’s the thing.

    Every skill you have, you must pressure-test it.

    There is no exception to this.

    As with any other skill, you will fail more times than you succeed for a long time.

    But in order to be truly good at anything, you need to be willing to fail more times than the average person is willing to try.

    PAA: Perfect advice. Perfect closing advice. If you’re going to get anywhere in anything, apply that.

    Alexander: Exactly.

    Closing Advice

    PAA: That’s a really good breakdown of the Body of Light. For anyone who’s interested in Alexander’s work, the Body of Light course or skill is contained within Alex’s curriculum. You basically have a whole zero-to-hero curriculum that goes through every aspect. What we’re talking about today is kind of around the end of that curriculum, although as we said, under certain circumstances you could speedrun that as well. Alexander, is there anything you’d like to say before we close on this subject?

    Alexander: Just my usual motivational speech.

    If you’re hearing this, you owe it to yourself to train.

    The world is not getting any better.

    I don’t care who you are or where you live.

    Your life would be better if you had this ability.

    This one specifically, or any of the ones that I teach, that Bob teaches, that any of the lovely people in Perseus teach.

    Get Clint Marsh’s book.

    Do Bardon’s book.

    Just buy the book.

    I don’t care what you do.

    Just do something.

    Train.

    Train your internal-power stuff.

    Summon spirits.

    Do magic.

    Demand a wonderful life out of this.

    Like I’ve said since my very first interview, when my career started, and I will say it until I die, and probably long after from my Body of Light:

    Everything you want, someone will have it.

    It might as well be you.

    Because if it’s not you, it’s somebody else.

    And fuck that guy.

    PAA: There we go. Closing remarks. Alexander, thank you so much.

    Alexander: Absolutely.


    Explore Alexander Moore & Practical Occult

    Practical Occult
    https://practicaloccult.com/

    The Body of Light & True Astral Projection
    https://practicaloccult.com/courses/principles-of-magic/principles-of-magic-information/

    Principles of Magic – Full Course
    https://practicaloccult.com/courses/principles-of-magic/

    Previous Conversations with Alexander

    Operative Magic: A Practical System for Real-World Use with Alexander Moore
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk3jQfM0r_4

    Further Questions with Alexander Moore
    https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/post/further-questions-with-alexander-moore/

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  • Portuguese Magic, Saint Cyprian and the Lost History of Iberian Grimoires: An Interview with José Leitão

    Portuguese Magic, Saint Cyprian and the Lost History of Iberian Grimoires: An Interview with José Leitão

    Introduction

    Historian José Leitão explores Portuguese magic, Saint Cyprian, grimoires, the Inquisition, learned and folk magic, treasure hunting and the hidden history of Iberian esoteric traditions.

    Learn more about his work.

    Academia.edu (research papers, books & publications)

    Hadean Press (many of José’s books)

    The Immaterial Book of St. Cyprian


    PAA: Your recent doctoral thesis is called Learned Magic in Early Modern Portugal. To begin with, what exactly was “learned magic,” and who would have had access to it in Portugal at that time?

    Alright, we’re starting with definition; as a scholar, I have to say I appreciate this.

    What we call ‘learned magic’ is, first and foremost, an academic category: a sort of artifice and tool used in an academic context in order to create a delineation to make our lives easier. You see, to speak of ‘magic’ from a historical position, in what we usually refer to as methodological agnosticism, can be complicated. There is a great deal of talk on and about magic throughout history, but this is rarely approached from a neutral perspective. Frequently, formalized magic schools or systems, particularly those after the nineteenth century, tend to have their own definitions of magic, its border and cosmological implications and how to engage with it. This means that such an idea of magic is contextual and specific and, from a broad or global historical perspective, of non-valid universal applicability. So, if we remove ourselves from any implicit or explicit belief in any magico-religious system and its definitions, we are left with a huge problem when we wish to speak about ‘magic’ because what do we even mean when we say ‘magic’? That word has been used in many contexts, it has meant many things, it has been used as a badge of pride and a mark of shame. So, as scholars, we need to carve out sections and distinctions within this vast ocean of ideas in order to make it circumscribable, discussable and historicizable. This is what the notion of ‘learned magic’ is.

    Learned magic is what we may consider to be a general global tendency within magic, usually placed in contrast with ‘folk magic’. In simple terms, folk magic can be thought of as an oral tradition, a form of practice associated with uneducated, undereducated or non-formally educated individuals. It is essentially preoccupied with immediate human troubles, such as physical protection, the healing of illness and disease, insuring good crops (in rural settings), the health of animals or the growth of children. In the environments where ‘folk magic’ is common, this is frequently not distinguishable from ‘folk religion’ or ‘folk medicine’ (which are themselves also academic categories), and these practices belong to a local cultural continuum with every other aspect of life, such as farming, cooking, weaving or anything else. Folk magic might be learned, and it may be the result of ‘remarkable birth’ circumstances, and its practitioners tend to exist without major social tensions and provide semi-normalized services to their communities, even if these might sometimes clash with each other or local representatives of learned culture.

    Learned magic is the other side of this coin. This is essentially a literary tradition, perpetuated and communicated through books and text. Logically, individuals who engage with this form of magic tend to be educated and somewhat affluent; typical social groups associated with this style of magic are clerics/priests, noblemen/courtiers, students and masters, graduates, wealthy merchants or artisans. This is a typically cosmopolitan tradition, mostly present in large cities. Every classical magic book, such the Clavicula Salomonis or any other medieval and early modern grimoire belong to this category due to their simple existence as written texts. Authors such as Agrippa or Paracelsus in the early modern period, Lévi, Mathers, Crowley or Bardon in the contemporary, equally contribute and formalize this literary tradition as a thing in itself.

    Having said all of that, like I stated right at the beginning, learned magic and folk magic are academic categories, with no inherent reality to themselves, and it is largely impossible to draw a line determining where learned magic ends and folk magic begins, or vice versa. While these are two general tendencies within magic, there are many overlaps between them, and historical magic practitioners will frequently not concern themselves with any such distinctions and will participate in whatever magic is available to them without any considerations on implicit cosmologies or the internal logic of the several practices they might engage with.

    Arriving here… well… the people involved with learned magic in early-modern Portugal, would be pretty much the same as those involved with it anywhere else: noblemen, clerics, students, medics, diplomats… literate individuals with formal learning and the resources and contacts necessary to acquire expensive forbidden literature and perform the rites described within this. There are, of course, nuances and idiosyncrasies in Portugal, as there are in France, England or in any environment, be them related to historical or cultural circumstances. For example, in the Portuguese kingdom, in the sixteenth and seventeenth century, you can find a marked absence of courtiers associated with magic, largely due to Portugal not having a royal court during much of this time period (the Portuguese crown was held by the Castilian king in Madrid). On the other hand, this same proximity between Portugal and Castile allowed the easy travel of Castilian theater troupes through Portugal, and there seems to be a marked recurrence of magic practitioners among these. But overall, learned magic tends to follow similar patterns of readership in most European regions.

    PAA: You have said that Portuguese archives contain a great deal of material about magic, but learned magic has received less attention than folk practices. Why do you think this part of Portuguese history has been so overlooked?

    I think, at the end of the day, it’s simply a matter of availability. I mostly work on the Portuguese Inquisition, and in this folk magic trials and documentation tend to be a lot more abundant, particularly in the eighteenth century. There are a few reasons for this, most of which are mundane, to be honest.

    Firstly, if we are talking from within a divide between the educated and the uneducated, historically, there have always been a greater number of uneducated people, and by that fact we should always expect to find a greater representation of people practicing folk magic than learned magic. Then there are other factors, the principal of which that the Iberian Inquisitions actually did not care too much about magic or magic practitioners. This means that, while magic was a crime, and if a magic practitioner was found he would be tried, there weren’t any individuals we could call ‘witchfinders’ in this country, nor individuals roaming the streets and fields actively looking for magicians or witches. Side by side with this, what is also observed is that Iberian society was not particularly concerned with magicians either, and at times this can even be seen as somewhat uncooperative with legal authorities in denouncing magicians. This is the situation for most of the history of the Inquisition, but it does change in the eighteenth century.

    Portugal can be said to have had a late Enlightenment, and only around the halfway point on the eighteenth century does one note a clear and systematic reformation of academic curriculum and a change in intellectual culture. This was particularly noticeable in medicine, with Galenism only being excluded from the curriculums of the University of Coimbra with the 1772 reforms. Leading up to this moment, you have a new generation of medical doctors pushing towards an increased openness to new and external medical notion as derived from Paracelsianism and chemical medicine. One of the things that can be understood by analyzing Coimbra Inquisition trials was that this new generation of medics was not only pushing for intellectual reform but actively instrumentalizing the Inquisition to suppress some of their competition, namely, folk healers/magicians, which then causes a sharp increase in the overall representation of folk magic trials in the Portuguese Inquisition overall.

    Looking at the other side of the social scales, it should also be understood that the persecution of learned magic carried some difficulties from a practical standpoint. Individuals associated with this tended to be well-connected, often times extremely well established and positioned. Not that the Inquisition was particularly frightened of an important or heavy name (particularly during the dynastic union, when they were probably the most powerful and well-organized institution in the country), but there were other issues at hand which aren’t always entirely evident, such as unspoken social obligation, favor trading and the overlaps of secular and ecclesiastic power structures. These are all things we can look at today as being clear instances of corruption, but the standards of the time were indeed very distinct from our own, and some of these things were just part of how things functioned. Also, learned magic is something which is not uncommonly practiced in an isolated context, or among a tight group of collaborators, and this makes it a lot less visible than folk magic, which tends to be more open and socially integrated.

    These are the historical reasons one can point out, but then you also have the academic reasons. I’m not disparaging anyone, but the fact is that the history of magic, as an academic discipline, is rather undeveloped in Portugal. This means that a lot of the work produced in the past decades was done from a position of partial unfamiliarity of the complicated nuances that exist within magic from a historical perspective. Furthermore, there isn’t much familiarity with the complicated varieties and genealogies of magic books which formalize learned magic as a thing in itself. While there are scholars who do notice clear differences between the magic being performed by illiterate individuals and educated elites, this observation falls short of these considering that they might be looking at two different and distinguishable forms of magic. So, under these conditions, obviously people will tend to gravitate towards the more abundant and comprehensive documents, namely those on folk magic.

    PAA: You mentioned that most of your evidence comes from the records of the Portuguese Inquisition. Since these accounts were written by people investigating and prosecuting others, how do you separate what someone actually believed or did from the Inquisition’s interpretation of it?

    Yeah… that is an eternal question when dealing with any Inquisition, or any legal proceedings, and there isn’t a final or easy answer for it. Unavoidably, any document the Inquisition produces, independently of its nature, topic or form, primarily informs us about the Inquisition itself: its social and economic context, its legal and political significance, its spheres of influence, the men who where a part of it and sustained it, and a variety of other aspects. Only under all of this do you have the defendant and their words.

    This isn’t a fatalistic observation, but it is something you need to keep in mind anytime you work with this sort of historical documentation. The words that are in front of you were not written by the person being questioned; they were written by a scribe, and this scribe could have his own biases, could mishear statements or could make mistakes. Much more serious than that, he was under the instruction of an inquisitor who could have him ignore and change statements.

    Looking at the other side, one also needs to remember that defendants weren’t all passive helpless victims, and many carefully selected their words in order to shift blame, redirect the inquisitor’s attention to a minor crime or even cater to the inquisitor’s expectations in order to provide him with a believable narrative of regret. And some simply lied for their self-preservation.

    I suppose navigating this is something that is only doable with experience, and even then, there is always a significant portion of uncertainty. But, as you read this type of documentation you start to understand and have a grasp on the typical avenues of questioning the Inquisition tended to follow, the stereotypical questions and the expected answers, and you can pretty much figure out where the defendant’s words stop and the inquisitorial projection begin. And more importantly, after you figure out the patterns, you also begin to see when the pattern is broken, when the inquisitor loses control of the conversation and, if you have a solid background in the history of magic and the history of the definition of heresy, when somebody is bullshiting or not.

    Also, most people don’t realize that an Inquisitorial tribunal was still a court of law. There was a clear and complex legal procedure to be followed. The Inquisition’s definition of crime might be somewhat arbitrary by our standards, but the legal procedure certainly wasn’t. There were several types of sessions, and the opening ones were usually given to the defendant, who was allowed to tell the entirety of his side of the story without leading questions. Again, such statements were not exempt from pressure, but you can extract a lot from them, from the original denunciations and the occasional voluntary confession.

    Furthermore, Inquisitors needed to work in order to prove heresy, they had to find actual evidence, question several witnesses, hear multiple versions of the same stories, allow the formulation of a defense, question the credibility of denouncers and witnesses. It’s rather an interesting experience, after a while, being able to follow the several sessions and retrace the several steps of a trial. I’ve had the experience of catching Inquisitors making logical mistakes, missing important evidence and defendants letting something slip the inquisitor didn’t catch up on… I’m not entirely sure, because those documents vanished during the 1755 earthquake, but I think I managed to solve a seventeenth century murder case a while ago.

    So, in sum… it’s all training, habit and familiarity, and, importantly, it’s knowing what an Inquisition did, what an inquisitor’s job was, what the definition of a heresy is and be able to put yourself on that side of the trench and understand why what is being said is being said, why an individual was being led to the house of torment. And it’s also being able to admit that there are things which these documents will never be able to tell you.

    PAA: You mentioned that there was no real border between ‘learned magic’ and ‘folk magic’. Did books, oral traditions and local customs regularly mix together?

    Yeah, sometimes. I think the best and most visible examples of this are some grimoire genealogical lines.

    It’s usually not a problem identifying when you are looking at learned magic, since this is a literary tradition. So, whenever anything is placed on paper, by definition, it becomes a learned object that requires education in order to be approached and interacted with. However, while the nature of a book is always learned, its content might not be so.

    You have plenty of instances, be it in Portugal or not, where your occasional literate farmer or local village priest will collect a number of local folk remedies or random practices into a notebook, making up what might be considered a ‘transitional’ object: somethings that bridges both these social and cultural extremes. In a way, the Iberian Books of Saint Cyprian, a type of local grimoire, seem to be created by this type of process: an accumulation of prayers, folk magic recipes, practices and procedures that builds itself into a literary tradition. Interestingly, the same can be seen to happen in the Scandinavian Cyprian books and in a few other grimoire genealogical lines.

    While rarer, the opposite is also known to happen, with there being circumstances where elements of learned culture manage to seep into the folk side of things. There are a few attested ways this could happen, such as through theatrical representation of learned magic practices, the very action of the Inquisition when this pressed defendants into admitting to practices and engagement with cosmological notions outside of their own environment, or when the crimes and penitence of its condemned were read aloud in the autos-da-fé (a type of public spectacle organized by the Inquisition to advertise its action and effectiveness). Also, we tend to think of reading as a solitary activity, but in the early modern period this could be a communal event, where a literate member of a group would read aloud to his companions and friends. There are known instances of the transmission of erudite medical notions into folk circles in this way and, in theory, should such a group have access to a learned magic book, the same could be done with it. However, it’s a lot easier to track the learned appropriations of folk culture, since these tend to leave a material track in history (the book), while the folk side, existing mostly in an oral form, often does not leave much of a mark which can be analyzed.

    PAA: When European books on magic arrived in Portugal, were they preserved in something close to their original form, or were they translated, shortened and mixed with Portuguese material?

    That’s very hard to say…

    Firstly, very few historical magic books have anything which we may call an ‘original form’. Some do have this, namely those written from scratch by one author, such as Agrippa’s Three Books of Occult Philosophy, or grimoires which we actually know their general origin and production date, like the Arbatel. But other than that, it’s all a constantly shifting, flowing set of ideas, practices and instructions, coming together and coming apart throughout centuries. We shouldn’t look at grimoires and magic books like fixed sets of information, but rather as historical products of a sprawling and constantly evolving tradition.

    But having said that, while I have found several instances of European magic books being present and used in the Portuguese territory, I haven’t found many actual manuscripts I could analyze… just an eighteenth century Italian Heptameron. The other books seemed to have been destroyed, and some simply disappeared while under the custody of the Inquisition (which is a whole other story). So, we are mostly limited to the descriptions of these books as given either by witnesses, defendants or Inquisition qualifiers (a specialized reader who would analyze suspicious statements, documents or books in order to ascertain if they contained any heretical implications), and these are often not very complete.

    However, in some instances, there are clear mentions of ‘composite’ magic books. Personal notebooks individual magicians could produce which could contain sections from various European magic books, loose folk magic procedures and other such material. But even in these instances, one thing that is noticeable is that, while European magic literature would be frequently transported into Portugal, this never seems to establish any roots here. Meaning, books would circulate, they could be copied and used, but these never entered long-lasting cycles of reproduction which would allow them to intermix with local magic ideas in a sustainable way; this seems to mostly happen in an isolated manner. This establishes a strange contrast with Castile, for example, a kingdom very close to Portugal both in geographic and cultural terms, and where you do have apparent frequent reproduction of European magic books and even the creation of local variations on these, particularly of the Solomonic kind. This then means that, in Portugal, you actually have two distinct traditions of learned magic: a cosmopolitan and outward looking one, dependent on the importation of books from outside of this territory, and the local one, produced in Portugal, by Portuguese individuals and largely corresponding to local Portuguese preoccupations, such as the Books of Saint Cyprian. And for most of history, these two traditions do not seem to interact with each other apart from these isolated incidents of partial overlap.

    And to complicate the matter, Castile, besides being a center of reproduction of magic books, was also the source of a few original lineages of texts, particularly those related to astral magic, and these could also be found in Portugal, but once again, they do not seem to be taken hold by local magic practicers and enter into local reproduction loops.

    PAA: When you examine an original manuscript, what can you learn that would be lost in a modern transcription? Can the handwriting, corrections, diagrams or signs of use sometimes tell their own story?

    Well… that depends on the transcription, but yes to those other things.

    This might sound odd, but when you find a manuscript, from a historical perspective, its content is not its most important aspect. The discovery of an unknown manuscript immediately forces a series of questions: what is this manuscript doing here, who brought it, who wrote it, who used it, why did it survive, what preoccupation is it responding to? When you are concerned with the history of magic, or the history of the practice of magic, these are the relevant questions to be answered. Also, the direct handling of manuscript allows for many other insights, such as material composition, errors and mistakes by the author, evidence of material fatigue, such as folding or degradation on specific pages, or the existence of marginalia or personal notes.

    Now, I’m obviously not disparaging the relevance of content, particularly when we are talking about an entirely new and unknown text. But even then, a new text primarily offers clues for the establishment of literary clusters and genealogies or the history of magic ideas. While some perennialism might disagree, the content of a magic manuscript does not exist by its own virtue; content is a result of a constant dialogue with social, cultural and personal context. For example: if I find a treasure hunting manuscript (as I have), this implies a cultural context of treasure hunting, an interaction with local folkloric ideas on land and territory, local notions of history, ideas on the nature of treasure guardian spirits, legal land rights, ethical and morality problems on the nature of wealth and fortune. On top of these questions, content might pose others: if the book is in Latin or vernacular this implies a different target readership; if the book mentions the use of liturgical literature, this implies a group of individuals, one of which will likely need to be a priest; if the book mentions specific cultural notions, such as specific treasure guardians, spirit names or geographic locations, this tells us from which culture and location it likely originates from; if it quotes another text, this offers its time frame, and all of this might then point towards an author or readership group.

    Now, I also understand if all of this sounds dull from a practitioner perspective that mostly cares about text and applicability. However, the answering of all of these questions invariably provides an exponentially richer approach to magic and a deeper understanding of the concrete actions and words involved in such a practice.

    PAA: Saint Cyprian seems to have several different identities: a Christian martyr, a legendary former magician and the supposed author of magical books. How did these different versions of Cyprian become joined together?

    It’s not so much as how they came together, but how they came apart…

    The identity of Cyprian as a saint, magician and martyr stems from his original narratives: the Conversion of Cyprian, the Confession of Cyprian and the Martyrdom of Cyprian, collectively referred to as the Acts of Saint Cyprian of Antioch, all of which are fictional narrative from the 4th century. So, right from the beginning, we need to always have present that Saint Cyprian of Antioch, the magician-saint to which the Books of Saint Cyprian are attributed to, is not a historical character.

    The stories from where this character is constructed are essentially Christian polemical texts, highlighting the inherent superiority of Christianity in relation to other religious practices, here portrayed as demonic. These texts describe Cyprian as a gifted pagan child, dedicated from an early age to several pagan gods and initiated into several mystery schools and who eventually offers himself to the Devil. As he reaches adulthood, Cyprian establishes himself in the city of Antioch as a magician for hire, being eventually contacted by a young man named Aglaïdas who desires to marry a young Christian damsel named Justa or Justina. As Cyprian attempts to use his demonic magic to inflame Justa’s love/lust for his client, he finds all his efforts fruitless, resulting in him eventually summoning the Devil to ask for an explanation for these failures.

    Being compelled by God, the Devil confesses the truth, that Justa’s God is the true God, and he, and all his cunnings and all his minions, are powerless against the sign of the cross. Being informed of this reality, Cyprian shuns the Devil, burns his magic books, abandons his old sinful ways and converts, which eventually leads to his and Justa’s martyrdom by order of Emperor Diocletian.

    Now, what the Cyprian narrative effectively creates, in hagiographical terms, is the par-excellence patron saint against magic and sorcery. The tale of Cyprian is essentially one of victory against magic, and it is with this fame that his name gets initially disseminated through various other texts, sermons and works. However, as early as the 11th century, Cyprian’s name can also be found not so much as a protector against magic, but as an intermediary capable of aiding practicing magicians in their workings. How or why this happens is pretty much a mystery, but he very quickly becomes one of the central magic heroes in several European regions.

    From here, several books, within their own narratives, start to claim Cyprian as their author, be it as a book that either escaped destruction, the one Cyprian thought was the most important and fundamental and decided to preserve, or even as a book produced by Cyprian after conversion, as a form of Christian magic. And these variations can be geographically or chronologically located as several regions where the tale of Cyprian became popular will have their own view of him. In Iberian he is extremely ambiguous, but he is mostly a patron of magic and aligned with ‘dark’ kinds of practices. On the other hand, in the orthodox world, Saint Cyprian is still in line with his hagiography, representing the victory of faith over demonic power, with ample devotional literature dedicated to him. All these distinctions are simply localized manifestations of what became a folk narrative. Its original purpose and plot became irrelevant, and Cyprian becomes what he needs to become when he enters any new environment and space.

    PAA: We usually speak about The Book of Saint Cyprian as though it were one particular book. Your research points to a much more complicated history involving different manuscripts, printed editions and collections of material. Is it really one book, or would it be more accurate to call it a family of books?

    The second, but I prefer to call it a literary tradition. There is no Cyprian ur-text, just like there isn’t one of the Clavicula Solomonis. It’s a lineage of books that are written, produced, put together and taken apart and manifest in several arrangements and branches. Some branches die out, others thrive, some lean on particular preoccupations, some get to the printing press and others don’t. However, I will say that, currently, or at least since the mid- nineteenth century, when you are speaking of the Portuguese Book of Saint Cyprian, you are mostly talking about one single book that has stayed relatively stable for over a century, but this is actually the exception in the long history of these texts. And this one single book is itself the result of this same long and complicated story, containing elements from early modern urban folk magic, eighteenth century treasure hunting preoccupations, Portuguese imperial concerns, French occultism and a bunch of other things. But even this one current Portuguese version cannot be said to be the final product of this genealogical line, as, having been transported to Brazil really early in its history, this single version has given rise to a series of local variations and adaptations, and importantly, all of these are just as legitimate as any others. And then, you also have the Scandinavian Cyprian books, which mostly follow a similar pattern of non-centralized composition and variability.

    So, you know, from the moment you realize Saint Cyprian is a fictional character, and that there is no evidence of a root text, then all variations on this are just as equally valid as all others.

    PAA: You mentioned the Portuguese printed Book of Saint Cyprian appeared relatively late, in the 19th century, although parts of its contents and the traditions surrounding it are much older. How far back can the Portuguese Cyprian tradition be traced?

    That’s a complex question. I firstly don’t think it’s entirely possible to distinguish between a Portuguese and a Spanish/Castilian Cyprian tradition before the nineteenth century. With that said, as far as I know, the first time a magic manuscript is referred to as a Book of Saint Cyprian is in a 1610 Toledo Inquisition denunciation (not a full trial). This document does not offer much information regarding the content and structure of this book, only that it was found in the possession of a certain Juan de Toledo and he used it to find treasure. After that, we have a Coimbra Inquisition trial from 1620 mentioning a Book of Saint Cyprian which had apparently been copied from an older version about thirty years before this trial commenced, placing it at the end of the sixteenth century. So, I would say that objects called ‘Books of Saint Cyprian’, from what we know, originate in this time period, however, Cyprian traditions, be them in written form or otherwise, are likely a lot older than that. In particular, it should be noted that these early Cyprian books seem to be accumulations of disparate material around one central text, usually referred to as the Prayer of Saint Cyprian, a talismanic magico-religious text belonging to a wider ‘Western’ magico-religious arsenal, recurrently used as a method for the banishment of evil spirits, sorcery, and the evil eye, known in regions as varied as Italy, Scandinavia, and the Arabic world, and extremely popular in early modern Iberia.

    So, if you want to talk about a Cyprian literary tradition, this would be primarily tied to the dissemination of this prayer, and only later with the books. But regarding the origin or introduction of this prayer in Iberia, I don’t think there has been a solid proposal for this, so your guess is as good as mine.

    Now, regarding concrete sections from the nineteenth century book, if we exclude the presence of the Prayer of Saint Cyprian (which it does contain), I’d say we can trace certain forms of divination and a few erotic/domination magic procedures present in this version of the Books of Saint Cyprian easily into the seventeenth century. In particular, the systems of cartomancy present in that book seem to be adaptations of hydromancy and favomancy techniques used in urban centres in Iberia and South America mentioned in a few dozens of Inquisition trials.

    PAA: Your recent book Cypriani Magici: Septem Horae Magicae examines a manuscript from the period when Cyprianic material was moving between handwritten manuscripts and printed books. What makes this particular text important?

    It’s not one particular aspect of the Septem Horae that makes it important, it’s the whole goddamn thing…

    The Septem Horae is a Cyprian book, that much is not up for debate, but besides that, it goes against every convention I had come to expect from a magic book, particularly from a Cyprianic one. It breaks too many molds, it’s too uncomfortable. In terms of the understanding of the history and culture of these books, its discovery is a kind of watershed moment; just when I thought I had figured it out, something else comes along that challenges all conventions and theories.

    I look at it as an icon of a transitional period which we know very little about. I mean, it is easy to imagine a history of the Books of Saint Cyprian if we know what these were in the seventeenth century, and what they are in the nineteenth, because you can draw a line between any two points, but a book like the Septem Horae demonstrate how crooked this line can be. It is linguistically complex, it directly mentions working with Lucifuge Rofocale, a Grand Grimoire spirit of the Solomonic tradition, while refusing the use of Solomonic methods, it introduces this spirit in a context of Iberian folklore and seems to describe a system of magic based on planetary influences meant to power an analogue mechanism that locates treasure. It’s really not linearizable with anything I’ve seen before.

    I still maintain that the early modern Cyprian books evolved in relative isolation from the rest of European magic literature, but the Septem Horae demonstrates that this isolation ended a lot sooner than I through, and it took on shapes that I have never seen in any other magic book. To be completely honest, besides reaching the obvious conclusion that this book needed to be published as soon as I saw it, it’s still too strange for me to fully understand what its implication might be, or, if it even has implications. It’s a weird one, is what I’m saying.

    And then… there is another aspect that is perhaps personal. The Septem Horae is somewhat of a legendary text. The first time it is mentioned anywhere seems to be in an 1888 article by an early Portuguese ethnographer in what is probably the first tentatively academic study of Portuguese Saint Cyprian traditions. Anybody who has ever attempted to study these books from an academic perspective has read about it, but, for about one hundred and forty years ago, no one has ever been able to locate the Septem Horae, much less read or analyze it. It means something to me that I was the one who found it. Death anxiety is something you have to overcome step by step, and finding this book and making it available to an interested readership was a big one for me.

    PAA: The manuscript includes a pact involving Lucifuge Rofocale, but, as you mentioned, it does not simply follow the familiar Solomonic system. What does this tell us about how Iberian writers adapted material from other European grimoires?

    This is really not an easy answer given the extremely particular and isolated nature of the Septem Horae. There are still a lot of unanswered questions about it, among which its ‘authenticity’, meaning: was this a book somebody put together in the expectation that its content would be put into practice, or was this some kind of practical joke/hoax, or an object created in a specific way in order to make it look magical and then sold at a high price. I truly don’t know how to answer this.

    But then, it does tell us something about the integration and adaptation of non-Iberian magic material into Iberian magic culture. Taking a step back, there are other instances of the importation of late-eighteenth and early-nineteenth century European grimoires into Iberia which are a bit more palatable and understandable than the Septem Horae, and from which we can make some considerations. It should be firstly noted that these importations tend to happen within the Cyprian tradition, meaning: a specific grimoire is brought into Iberia, goes through a process of adaptation, and starts being referred to as a Book of Saint Cyprian. Furthermore, all of these instances I have so far analyzed seem to adapt these external grimoires for the purpose of magic treasure hunting. We have this happen with the Grand Grimoire, the Heptameron and the Grimoire of Pope Honorius.

    Given that magic treasure hunting, while being a greatly disseminated form of magic practice, tends to present very clear local specificities, these grimoire adaptations to the Iberian territory operate a certain ‘folklorization’ of these same non-Iberian texts. Certain sections and ideas are replaced or retconned in order to make them fit the general Iberian idea of what a hidden or buried treasure is and how these are supposed to function in relation to this. So, in this sense, and looking back at the beginning of our conversation, while these texts never cease being learned magic texts, there is an approximation of their content and purpose to folk preoccupation and cosmologies, even if sometimes this is merely implicit.

    PAA: You’ve mentioned treasure hunting a few times, and this appears repeatedly in Iberian magical texts and in stories connected with Saint Cyprian. Why was hidden or enchanted treasure such an important subject in Portuguese and Spanish magic?

    Well, treasure hunting is a rather common magic preoccupation in all of Europe, particularly from the eighteenth century onward. Magic will often follow trends, fashions and general tendencies, and treasure hunting is one of the hot topics of the Enlightenment. You have magic treasure hunting books popping up a bit everywhere in Europe, an example of which is the Grand Grimoire.

    Being that the Cyprian books before the nineteenth century never had a particularly solid form, and were themselves constantly responding to local preoccupations, treasure hunting quickly became associated with them. However, this does not seem to be a random or gratuitous event, and we can make some considerations on why this is the case.

    Sidestepping the prevalence of treasure narratives in Iberian, the Prayer of Saint Cyprian, the central text around which the Books of Saint Cyprian crystalize, is considered to be an extremely efficient way of banishing evil influences and spirits. Looking at treasure hunting worldwide, one of its most common characteristics is the belief that buried treasure will be under the stewardship of a treasure guardian, some kind of spirit or entity who will actively protect the treasure and antagonize the would-be treasure hunter(s). This is the reason why you often need magic to hunt for treasure, as magic treasure hunting books will contain instructions and procedures to banish these treasure guardians. In Iberia, this banishment function seems to be taken by the Prayer of Saint Cyprian and so, treasure hunting books being produced in eighteenth century Iberia will frequently feature this prayer and be named and referred to as Books of Saint Cyprian due to this. It should also be noted that not all eighteenth century Books of Saint Cyprian are treasure hunting books, and not all Iberian eighteenth century treasure hunting books are Books of Saint Cyprian, simply, the prayer takes on a new role in this time period, and many new books follow suit.

    Now, truth be said, even before the boom of magical treasure hunting Europe-wide, Iberia already had a complex culture of this same activity associated with certain mythical narratives of self-definition arising from the Reconquista, the lengthy historical process of conquest and establishment of the several Christian kingdoms of the Iberian Peninsula between the eighth and fifteenth centuries and which places a radical distinction between Christians and the previous Muslim rullership of the territory. The stark religious and racial distinction (often more imaginary than real) drawn in the Iberian ‘collective imaginary’ between Christians, as the current rulers of this territory, and ‘Moors’, as the previous rulers, effectively pushes the latter into a realm of chronological murkiness, associating their name and constructed image with all of the elements within the local landscape which cannot be accurately located within the collective memory of known historical time.

    This means that buried treasure, riches left behind by other cultures and civilizations, unknown or unusual structures such as megalithic monuments, Roman or early medieval ruins, caverns, water basins or strange rock formations (equally the common targets of treasure hunters in the rest of Europe), become associated with the notion of the ‘Moor’ not so much as an ancestor but as a radical outsider and antagonist to Christian culture and society, making them into a sort of cosmological ‘other’. Besides pseudo-historical, this narrative will occasionally pain these same ‘Moors’ as a kind of fairy, mouros or moura encantadas, individuals who were placed under a magical enchantment by some unspecified powerful sorcerer and now exist in a kind of immaterial state, inhabiting underground palaces and kingdoms and who may also act as treasure guardians. More often than not, be it in the eighteenth century or any other, in Iberia, buried treasure is assumed to be mouro treasure.

    So, once again, while magic treasure hunting books are learned objects, in Iberia they often have an undeniable folkloric aspect to themselves, as their own raison d’être is dependent on folk narratives, tales and legends. This holds true for the treasure hunting Cyprian book as also the external grimoires which are brought into this territory and reworked into treasure hunting manuals.

    PAA: Catholic prayers, saints and sacred objects appear throughout Portuguese magical material. Was the Christian language sometimes used to make magic look acceptable, or did the people involved genuinely understand these practices as part of their Catholic world?

    It’s more often the second option. Throughout the medieval and early modern period, the word ‘magic’ is actually most often used as an accusation. Something is labeled as magic, and not so much claims itself to be magic. Obviously, there are many exceptions to this, and there have always been people who will claim the title of magician, particularly in learned magic circles.

    But on the folk side, where you find these prayers and saintly petitions, the situation is not really that. And like I mentioned before, folk magic is not an isolated practice and the people who practice it most often don’t consider what they are doing to be a delineated form of practice distinct from what ecclesiastic or theological authorities will call religion. It was an absolute part of their Catholic worldview, and this will hold true even for people who will claim special titles in folk environments, such as ‘seven born sons/daughter’. The notion of multiple coexisting cosmologies or mutually exclusive sources of power and authority does not exist in the early modern period, be it in a learned or folk environment. Every source of power and authority will exist and share its reality with every other source of power and authority; if the Christian God is the true source of power and goodness, then every exercise of power and goodness will be believed to be rooted in this same God.

    This is the reason why folk magicians (or the individuals we, as academics and scholars, refer to as folk magicians) will frequently resist being labeled as ‘magicians’ or ‘witches’; these words were accusations, and most individuals did not perceive themselves as criminals by doing what they did.

    PAA: You mentioned cartomancy before. In Clearing the Waters, you traced Saint Cyprian divination through records from the seventeenth to the nineteenth century. Is this what you address in this book?

    Yeah. That book was basically me trying to resolve a few strange passages and cartomancy systems present in the contemporary nineteenth century Book of Saint Cyprian. Basically, that Cyprian book describes a few cartomancy methods, and these mostly rest on a few basic principles: you perform some ceremonies, consecrations and/or prayers, and you make a spread with playing cards. In this spread, the court cards stand for people and the pip cards for locations or events, and you then perform a reading by creating a narrative with all these elements in a specific order. This is interesting enough to warrant some consideration, but what makes this odd is that these same readings are frequently accompanied by the recitation of certain prayers and historiolae associating Saint Cyprian with the sea and with ships… which are elements that don’t really make sense in that context.

    This became interesting when I began working on the Inquisition and started finding these same prayers and historiolae associated with hydromancy. Besides this, what was likely the most popular form of divination in the seventeenth century among urban folk magicians was the mentioned favomancy. The basis of this system was that you gathered a collection of fava beans and a few other objects; these would need to be consecrated in several ways and mixed and cast over a flat surface. Once this was done, the reader would construct a narrative based on the relative position and proximity of all of these things to each other, in which the fava beans would signify people, and the remaining objects signify locations or events. All in all, this was the same basic divination system present in the nineteenth century Cyprian books, but instead of court and pip cards it used fava beans and an assortment of trinkets.

    Clearing the Waters is me tracking all of these systems through time and through several trials; explaining in detail how they worked, known variations on them, and the prayers and consecrations you are supposed to use with the ultimate aim of proposing a transmission of elements between these two early modern divination systems (hydromancy and favomancy) into cartomancy. And to be fully honest, while the theory holds solid, I cannot say that this is an entirely understood story, as the introduction of playing cards into this whole thing is not something I’m not particularly clear on. Obviously, cartomancy was already used in early modern divination, but this wasn’t particularly popular in Portugal, and you only start to see it pop up occasionally in the eighteenth century, and mostly through the influence of immigration from Castile (where cartomancy was indeed quite popular). So, this theory of transmission is still kind of a work in progress… at this point I have managed to collect a few more mentions of divination that seem to bear weight on this whole narrative of evolution of divination from the sixteenth to the nineteenth century, so, with any luck, I’ll be able to publish a sequel to Clearing the Waters if I manage to piece a few more things together.

    PAA: Portuguese Cyprianic traditions later travelled to Brazil and other places. As the books crossed the Atlantic, what changed and what remained recognizably Portuguese or Iberian?

    Before I get into this, let me just mention that, so far as I’ve researched, I haven’t found significant elaborations on the Cyprian literary tradition in Spanish-speaking South America, even if the nineteenth century Spanish Book of Saint Cyprian (which is distinct from the Portuguese version) is extremely popular over there. I don’t have an explanation for this, and it could even be that I am missing something.

    Having said that, indeed Brazil does have a great and lively culture of Books of Saint Cyprian. For the most part, these seem to maintain a certain ‘core’, similar to the nineteenth century Portuguese ones. This is usually related to specific uses of the Prayer of Saint Cyprian present in the Portuguese book for exorcism and banishment of evil influences and treasure hunting. Some Brazilian books will include more material from the Portuguese edition, others less, but overall, most (if not all) will have very identifiable sections taken from it.

    But… the variations you find in Brazilian books throughout the late- nineteenth and twentieth century aren’t fully linearizable. Some books will lean a lot more on the folk Catholic aspects, other will include new section from non-Iberian grimoires, like the Clavicula Salomonis or the Ars Goetia, other will include Brazilian specific practices, be them associated directly or indirectly with Quimbanda and Umbanda, or from more ambiguous systems, sometimes collectively referred to as macumba.

    Now, besides this, from the twenty-first century on, you do start having Brazilian Cyprian books which do break this rough mold, and some do seem to be largely original works. Among these a few are clearly related to more spirit-inclined traditions, such as the already mentioned Umbanda, and you even have books which suggest themselves as having been texts received directly from Saint Cyprian, or some other related entity in the context of such magico-religious practices.

    PAA: During your years of research, did you find anything in the archives that made you seriously rethink your earlier understanding of Saint Cyprian or Portuguese magic?

    Yeah… a number of times, actually. While in the last fifteen years or so, our collective understanding of the Cyprian books has increased immensely, this is still a pretty frail field. We have a few mentions in the Inquisition, a few known manuscripts, but these are not so substantial that some kind of bulk number analysis and theorization can be made. This means that all our proposals and hypotheses are fragile by definition, and any new mention or manuscript we find risks casting everything down.

    The finding of the Septem Horae was a particularly dramatic instance of this. While that book had been mentioned 1888 as existing, its description was outlandish, and the fact that it simply disappeared suggested some kind of hoax. Then, out of the blue, the thing turns out to be real. I thought Books of Saint Cyprian where always written in vernacular, that one is in Latin (I’m using this word very liberally… because calling that Latin is a bit of a stretch); I thought the Grand Grimoire was a nineteenth century influence on Spanish Cyprian books, but the Septem Horae also has this; I considered that for a Book of Saint Cyprian to be accepted as a Book of Saint Cyprian, it needed to contain the Prayer of Saint Cyprian, but that one doesn’t; I through Lucifuge was a Solomonic spirit, but here he is being dealt with in a non-Solomonic way. It challenged and redid any and all definitions I had put in order to delineate the Portuguese Cyprian tradition.

    An event such as this is distressful, but it’s not tragic. In fact, it’s a blessing; it gives us, as academics, the chance to do it all again but better. More information is always a good thing, and if we feel otherwise, that’s just ego talking.

    And at the end of the day, this was indeed a good thing, not because I found a new manuscript, but because I ended up finding additional Inquisition documentation describing a manuscript more in line with the Septem Horae than the other manuscripts and texts I had previously studied. Should I not have found the Septem Horae, I would have probably disregarded these new references as outliers, or an instance of somebody misidentifying a random magic book as a Book of Saint Cyprian. The Septem Horae gave me the foresight necessary to realize that these were actually rare representatives of a branch of the Portuguese Cyprian tradition that ended up dying out.

    And regarding Portuguese magic in general, there wasn’t much information on that to begin with. We can now talk about traditions, lineages and genealogies, be them of practices, ideas or magical systems. We can talk about distinctions between urban and rural folk magic, between Iberian and European learned magic, between Portuguese and Castilian magic book production. Each of these differentiations and distinctions comes from a moment when whatever expectation we might have had regarding local magic practice got shattered and we were forced to reconsider and reconstruct a whole bunch of ideas.

    While I fully identify as a historian and scholar, I did originally start working on this sort of material coming from more of a practitioner background and, like many others, I had been educated in the post-nineteenth century occultism mentality of what magic was or what it was supposed to be. Everything from that point on has been a rethinking of this, and it will continue to be so.

    PAA: Finally, what does the Portuguese evidence add to our understanding of European magic more generally? Is Portugal an unusual regional example, or does it reveal gaps in the way the wider history has been told?

    Humm… I don’t think Portugal is any more unusual or unique than any other place in this regard, so it’s not about that.

    If we are engaging in a global discussion on the history and practice of magic, then this is simply another element to be added to this discussion. European magic, like Europe itself, is a complex space of continuities and fractures. You cannot tell a history of European anything if you don’t recognize the local idiosyncrasies of all the cultures and territories that make up this space.

    My own conception of my work is to integrate the Portuguese territory and its local culture into the global map of magic, to contribute to our collective understanding of this phenomenon in both its common and specific aspects, be these banalities or exceptionalities. For example, one way I can say that my work has truly contributed to filling a gap in history, is in my identification of a common tradition of Ibero-American early modern urban folk magic that seems to suggest itself as one of the roots of current Brazilian magico-religious systems like Quimbanda. I did not set out to discover this, I did not set out to claim a Portuguese origin to Brazilian practices, this simply happened because this is the nature of an interconnected world.

    In this same way, my studies of the Portuguese Cyprian books aim to accurately integrate these into the map of magic literature and grimoires. And in this I’m not a lone gun, and there are many scholars in several regions doing similar work as me, and it is due to this collective effort that, today, we can talk about Solomonic, Faustian, Iberian Cyprianic, Scandinavian Cyprianic, Paracelsian or Agrippan grimoires. That magic is not one thing, it is hundreds of things; that there is magic outside of orders, temples, and schools, that, like the authors of the thousands of grimoires that have been catalogue or are yet to be discovered, each individual has the legitimacy to put down his own grammar of magic and actively contribute this ever-changing culture.

    More words and more definitions don’t limit our exploration of magic; a deeper understanding of ourselves does not segregate us from each other. All of this offers new articulation, new insights, new bridges, new ways for all of us to, collectively, better understand oneanother and recognize our specificity and that of our fellows; to realize that what might be unique in any of us right now is also a product of communication and the commerce and trading of ideas and cultures.

    Portugal is not special, it is just another piece of the worldwide puzzle, but it just happens to be my piece.

    PAA: Thank you very much for sharing your insight. All the best with your work.


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  • Higher Guardian Angel Contact, Bardon, Sixty Skills, Akasha and Non-Dual Light

    Higher Guardian Angel Contact, Bardon, Sixty Skills, Akasha and Non-Dual Light

    Introduction

    What does it actually mean to make contact with the Higher Guardian Angel—and how can a practitioner distinguish a vague impression from a clear, direct encounter?

    In this episode of Perseus Conversations, James speaks with Fred, known in the Perseus and Sixty Skills communities for his detailed accounts of magical practice, energy work and direct experience.

    Fred explains the difference between soft contact and hard contact with the Higher Guardian Angel, why he regards the HGA as an external spiritual intelligence rather than simply a higher aspect of the self, and how his earliest experiences eventually led him toward Franz Bardon’s system and the Abramelin operation.

    Fred also discusses how his background in esoteric martial arts shaped his approach to magical training. For him, spiritual practice should produce something practical and observable—not merely interesting ideas, symbolic interpretations or vague experiences.

    This is a wide-ranging conversation about what can happen when years of martial arts, energy cultivation, Hermetic training and direct magical practice begin to converge.

    The conversation explores:

    • Soft and hard contact with the Higher Guardian Angel
    • Franz Bardon’s Initiation into Hermetics — IIH
    • The Practice of Magical Evocation — PME
    • The Key to the True Quabbalah — KTQ
    • The Abramelin operation and Knowledge and Conversation
    • Sixty Skills and continuous energy practice
    • Martial arts, qigong and practical demonstrations of force
    • Clairvoyance, clairaudience and mental wandering
    • Elemental equilibrium and the generation of Akasha
    • Non-Dual Light and divine authority
    • Meeting gnomes and working with elemental beings
    • Why disciplined practice matters more than natural talent
    • How different systems can support and strengthen one another

    Interview

    Introduction and Fred’s Background

    James: Welcome to Perseus Conversations. Today I’m speaking with Fred, whose detailed writing in the Perseus and Sixty Skills communities has helped make difficult-to-describe experiences much more concrete. A recent Discord discussion inspired this conversation. Fred, welcome.

    Fred: Hey there. Hope you’re doing well. Thank you for organizing this and indulging me a little bit and yeah here we are.

    James: Your reports are genuinely useful because they give practical detail to experiences that are often described vaguely. Before we begin, could you introduce yourself and explain the training that brought you here?

    Fred: Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, so I’m Fred. I’m on the Discord as well as the Perseus community as Utabishtam. In terms of my background and so forth, so I came to the magical training relatively late in my career, my career of practice. My first training was probably around 2006 or so is when I started training some esoteric Japanese martial art called Kaza Rasheru. A style of Japanese monastic martial arts. And then over time I was introduced to the writings of one grandmaster Wongq Kit of the Shaolin Wanam Institute. And you know, one thing led to another and I got to train with him face to face. That kind of skyrocketed my martial arts and my energy work attainment and training.

    Fred: And then over time I learned from some other teachers almost always from the esoteric I’m sorry from the energy work and martial arts side of things. So that’s one of the primary lenses through which I focus my training. How can I make something immediately practical in the here and now sort of thing and with you know some of our mutual acquaintances and teachers like Bob Smith at 60 skills and so forth about the grounding energy into you know physical reality for practical benefits that’s the main way that I evaluate am I going to spend the time on this sort of thing basically in terms of you know the magical experiences and so forth outside of the energy training.

    Fred: Back in 2015, I had my first I guess this is something we’ll talk about more soft versus hard contact with the holy guardian angel, which kind of put me on the path that eventually, you know, 10 freaking years later got me into Initiation into Hermetics and then meeting the 60 skills in the Perseus community and other things. Such as getting hard contact and so forth that led to the conversation we’re having today.

    James: I had not realised this went back ten years. Your martial and energetic background seems to explain why your approach is so practical and grounded. How did that first light contact arise? Was it connected to the energy work you were already doing?

    Early Contact with the Higher Guardian Angel

    Fred: Oh yeah. So in terms of getting that first like obvious but light contact with the holy guardian angel. So back in I want to say 20 thou yeah 20 the 2015 2016 time period or so. I was training in a particular martial arts school. Almost all my stories relate to martial arts because that’s what I’ve done a lot. So I was training in a particular martial arts school called low tiger count and it is an particular martial art from Indonesia which has a heavy Chinese as well as Indonesian influence in terms of the energy work and the martial art fighting technique. And one of the things that you wind up doing once you’re moving from that to like, okay, you’ve been around, you’re an intermediate level student, I’m starting to trust you with some of the good stuff, so to speak.

    Fred: And the part of the training that my then master taught me was if what we would call clairvoyance training. Essentially it was assume a particular static posture. If you’re for the audience, if you’re understanding a martial arts, it’s related to the horse riding stance and then like looking holding your arms in a certain way and then just like looking at your arms until you can start seeing the energy basically and you know because of the prior training you know I had a sensation of energy the clairsentience training that was very well established by that point but I couldn’t really see or hear the energy worth a damn at all. So, so my master then shows me that exercise and I start developing the ability to see the energy much faster than expected.

    Fred: So I ask my best friend who got me into you know magic and esoterics and stuff in the first place and he does what we would call some scrying some mental wandering some divination all those like information seeking things and then he says oh hey it looks like there might be an angel watching out for you sort of thing and I’m like the hell are you talking about sort of thing so he’s like all right here so Now, a very common thing you’ll hear in my silly life stories is I don’t know what the heck is going on. I ask someone smarter than me. He gives me an exercise to do and then I do the homework basically. So, he tells me, hey, you should do this stuff. And at the end of the day, it turns out it was a form of pathworking basically.

    Fred: And through the pathworking basically mental wandering meditating on the presence of the angel praying and so forth and just trying to get information I’m able to delineate the sigil of the angel in question and then I start having some very vague contact and loose contact with this particular being and eventually that grows into full actual visual appearance of it. As well as conversations as well. And then again, this is back in 2015 2016. And then I don’t really do a whole lot with it unfortunately because I didn’t know what to do with it essentially. I didn’t have the background knowledge to know like hey, how do I deepen and cultivate this relationship? Like what’s in it for me? What’s in it for the angel? What’s in it for other people? Will this turn into something bad in the future for me? I didn’t know.

    Fred: Therefore, I didn’t really do a whole lot with it other than just, you know, practice my clairvoyance and clairaudience a little bit here and there and, you know, sometimes asking that being some questions related to my spiritual cultivation, which was all very vague stuff, frankly. I had a bit of a Buddhist background in terms of the meditation and energy cultivation and so forth, like a lot of people in the esoteric martial arts community. And eventually over time, you know, fast forward almost 8 years after that, so like 2020, no, actually not sooner than that, maybe 2021 or so. This is going to sound like a silly anime fantasy, frankly. I was, you know, it was my birthday. I was just sleeping basically. And I had a dream. The angel was in the dream.

    Fred: And the angel very explicitly said, “Hey, you should do this exercise I’m going to show you.” And the exercise turned out to be what I realized in retrospect was a form of kundalini awakening. Basically like, hey, you should sit down or stand in whatever posture in these postures I’m going to show you and you should focus on this energy center for, you know, a month and then build up to the next energy center and so on and so forth and then you’ll know what to do next afterwards. Yeah. So I did the thing and eventually I started getting more signals as to hey you should practice this thing over here or hey you should spend more focus on this sort of thing and then eventually the angel checks in a couple of times and that ultimately leads to me finally taking a look at Initiation into Hermetics you know France Bardon’s works and so forth.

    Fred: Now, to give you an idea of how long it takes me to get anything freaking done, the aforementioned friend who told me what was going on, like, hey, it’s an angel. Like, you should probably do something about that sort of thing. He had actually told me about Initiation into Hermetics, Agrippa’s three books of occult philosophy, Qabbalah, he told me about all of this stuff back in 2011. So, so it took me a very long while, including the an esoteric, you know, punch in the face basically it to finally get around to doing any of the stuff that my very generous friends and teachers had told me about a decade ago essentially. So, what a great stop. Yeah. So that very long- winded tale is what got me into soft contact and so forth over a much longer period of time than it should have.

    James: That gives important context. What began as light contact developed over many years into something much more specific. Let’s turn to the nature of that contact.

    James: A community question asks whether you understand the Higher Guardian Angel as an external entity, a higher aspect of the self, or something else entirely. What is the nature of our connection to the HGA in daily life?

    What Is the Higher Guardian Angel?

    Fred: Yeah. Yeah. So, I’m going to be very opinionated about this. I’m very opinionated about a lot of things. I very strongly believe and accept the position that the holy guardian angel is a separate entity. It is not just who you are sort of thing. Sorry, I’m so I’m 41. I watched Lion King back in the day as a kid. I’m just imagining people saying like when like Mufasa shows up in the clouds and it’s like, “Ah, Simba, remember who you are sort of thing.” I’m not that kind of guy basically. For me coming from primarily these like orthodox systems and like established systems and so forth of how to get in contact with the HGA and what do you do with the HGA and so forth.

    Fred: The holy guardian angel is very thoroughly so an external entity that is in the divine plan if you want to use that terminology or something else that’s more palatable depending on your beliefs about how the universe works and so forth. The holy guardian angel is a piece of divinity, a facet of divinity whose greatest quest and goal in the divine plan essentially. And I know this is like ridiculously over the top of religious terminology. It certainly I know it sounds that way. It is the entity that is most thoroughly invested and involved with your spiritual cultivation and maturity. It is there a lot of different cultures.

    Fred: Basically every culture that has a religious and mystical and magical system has the idea of the very powerful and wise tutelary spirit whose entire purpose is to bring your bring you closer to enlightenment closer to spiritual fulfillment closer to spiritual cultivation and to make you the best version of you that is possible. Now every culture has its own ideas as to the nature of this being and that’s where you have a lot of different means of contact in different magical systems. Certain systems which I completely disagree with have the idea that oh the knowledge and conversation and contact of the holy guardian angel is you awakening to the higher aspect of yourself. I see where they’re coming from.

    Fred: I also know historically human historically speaking that is that idea primarily came about during that strange time period of the of the 19th and 20th centuries where people were emphasizing the biologic and psychologic paradigms of magic and esoterics like oh spirits are just a part of your own brain or oh a mystical experience is just you committing therapy on yourself sort of thing. I completely disagree with all that thanks to my experiences and experiences that will be completely unexplainable in the purely psychological paradigm of magic. So, I don’t believe in that stuff. I also like trolling these people by doing objective acts of esoteric ability and they don’t know what the hell that’s going on sort of thing.

    Fred: So, I’m not enlightened enough to not troll some people every so often kind of thing. But it’s all for the sake of everyone’s enu enlightenment and cultivation. So, I don’t feel too bad doing that.

    James: You mentioned objective esoteric abilities. What kinds of abilities or demonstrations do you mean?

    Objective Esoteric Abilities and Martial Arts

    Fred: So, yeah. So, in terms of the martial arts side of things, one of the reasons I love martial arts is you can’t martial arts. You either won the fight or you didn’t win the fight. Basically, to steal a line from a movie, one person is standing and one person’s on the ground. You can pretty well tell who’s got it, basically. So, there are a couple things that we do in martial arts to test our ability, test our force that doesn’t involve, you know, punching someone so hard in the liver that they develop internal bleeding and, you know, poop blood. Basically, it’s very impolite to make your classmate poop blood in the classroom sort of thing. So, we have other ways of testing skills.

    Fred: One of the things that I’ve been able to do, for example, is this is going to sound very silly and stupid, but what you do is you take some eggs and you also have like two chairs basically and it’s like you’re standing in the middle of the chairs. One chair is right to your left and one of them is just off to your to your right. You take a step back and you balance an egg on each one of those chairs or like a small table. And then on top of the eggs, you balance a length of sugar cane or bamboo or some plank of wood basically. Then you focus energy at your palm and then you slash the bamboo with your palm. And then if you do it correctly with the right level of speed and force, you cut through the sugar cane or the bamboo or whatever, without crunching the eggs, basically.

    James: I see.

    Fred: Yeah. So, you know, for most people, they can’t understand how that works at a physical level. Now, if you want to get into the actual pulley and pin mechanic of, you know, mechanical physics, yeah, once you’ve severed the severeds the length of bamboo, for example, maybe at a mechanical weak point or something, that bamboo is no longer one piece of wood and therefore doesn’t crunch straight downward onto the eggs. Energetically what’s happening is that your single-pointed concentration and your ability to focus force at one particular striking point of your arm or your palm or whatever and what is what gives you the overall physical wherewithal to be able to do something like that.

    Fred: And you know that’s something that most people can’t do on a regular physical basis. Another thing that can that I’ve done in the past, accidentally actually, so I’m I’m 5 foot five. I’m a very short person, especially for Americans. People don’t expect me to be able to like jump very far or lift up very heavy things or anything of the sort. I have in the past, from a standing position jumped straight up to the point where my feet were about, four feet off the ground. That was a purely energetic thing done completely by accident. And you know, I haven’t really been able to reproduce that regularly. I know how to train it, but it’s also a very obvious thing that hey, you’re standing on the ground and then without going into a big windup, now you’re four feet in the air sort of thing as a jump. Not levitation, just as purely a jump basically. So, that’s that’s a really fun one to make people question what they think is possible.

    James: That is the kind of practical qigong demonstration people will find interesting.

    Fred: Exactly. Yep.

    James: At what point in a practitioner’s development is it best to pursue soft or hard contact? First, how do you distinguish the two? And should access to Akasha and Non-Dual Light be established before contact with the HGA, or afterwards?

    Soft Contact, Hard Contact and When to Begin

    Fred: Yeah, absolutely. So those are really good questions and those are some of the questions that kind of motivated this whole conversation actually. So in terms of the getting some definitions on board, which I realize I kind of blitzed over in my last ramble there. So the way that I define soft contact and a couple people that I used to know well as well, soft contact is relatively vague sort of things. It’s maybe you give a prayer or you put out your request for aid into the cosmos for example and then you get this like vague prickle on your conscience that says hey you should do this or you should probably avoid that situation sort of thing. It’s it’s very vague.

    Fred: Sometimes you mistake it for yourself and your own thoughts but regardless it is not very solid. You can’t like point across the room and say, “There’s my angel. He’s talking to me right now and this are the exact words that I’m hearing.” Sort of thing. So, so that’s soft contact and that is the sort of thing that anyone can develop very well and I’ll get to that right after this part. Hard contact on the other hand is very solid. It is extremely unambiguous and it is to the point where you can effectively do what I just said that you can’t do in soft contact. Like you can point across the room and say my holy guardian angel has manifested over in that corner over there and these are the exact words they are telling me sort of thing.

    Fred: It is effectively to the point where you have absolutely no doubt in your mind as well as your internal andor external vision and hearing and so forth. That is your clairvoyance, clair audience etc. There is no doubt in your mind that this conversation is happening. That being is right there and you can communicate with them at any moment in time without any interruption whatsoever using the methods that the holy guardian angel teaches you to communicate with them.

    James: That distinction is very clear.

    Fred: Yeah. And then getting to the next to another part of the u the community question there. So when do you do it essentially? And that is a question that has plagued so many people across millennia basically. So if you want to look at the classical sources, you know, we’re talking a Grippa’s books of occult philosophy for example, you’re talking priestly initiation rituals. You’re talking shamanic rituals and so forth and means of initiation. Pretty much all of them say that you should start aiming at soft contact as soon as possible essentially. I in some situations even before you formally start any like magical slashthomegical training like for a lot of these different systems getting that soft contact like that ability to you know link to the divine and start getting advice directly from the being whose entire role in this universe is your spiritual fulfillment and so forth.

    Fred: Like ideally you get that on your radar as soon as possible sort of thing like before you’re trusted with you know the magical version of a gun and a rocket launcher basically. And in terms of how you do that it’s it’s actually very simple and it’s one of the things that one of a particular ritual magician I used to chat with every so often he does very good work. So his YouTube channel is Amateur Magus. He is a predominantly Golden Dawn style ritual magician and he has the running joke which we kind of both believe is actually a thing that there is effectively what he calls a demonic public relations campaign trying to keep people away from the divine essentially. Like why would you seek out the holy guardian angel? It’s so freaking hard. You’ve got to live like a monk for a whole year or whatever stuff. Why don’t you just watch TV instead? Why don’t you just, you know, have a beer instead? You know, crap like that essentially.

    Fred: That all being said, even if you read the most dry and technical, boring, magical literature out there, by which I mean Agrippa’s books of oult philosophy, I will rag on Agrippa for the rest of my life. I’ve read his books multiple times and the guy needed a freaking editor, but that’s a rant for another time. He straight up spells out how anyone can get soft contact with a holy guardian angel. What it basically entails is you find a quiet place and you pray every day for the divine to help you and to send you the holy guardian angel. And by the end of a month, you will have soft contact with the holy guardian angel. Any average human being. Again, you don’t have to be a genius for any of this stuff. You don’t have to be particularly intelligent or anything.

    Fred: You just need the dedication and discipline to sit down or kneel down or whatever position you want to take and have the wherewithal to pray for 15 minutes every day for a month basically and you will get soft contact with the Holy Guardian Angel. That is a 100% guarantee. Your pizza is free, etc., etc., kind of thing. That’s really all that it takes. You have to put in the bare minimum work of showing yourself and showing the cosmos in general that you are putting in the work to get contact with the holy guardian angel. And it takes a month if that.

    James: So soft contact can begin well before work with Akasha or Non-Dual Light.

    Fred: Absolutely. Absolutely. And this is one thing that I know a lot of people don’t like Franz Bardon’s IH and so forth. They’re always trying to find a way to shortcut the process or they don’t like the fact that he was, you know, a dude in the 1950s and60s who, you know, survived World War II and so forth. They don’t like this, they don’t like that about him. He’s straight up step one and step two are effectively the hermetic version of doing this where you learn how to meditate, you learn how to pay attention to your conscience. Divinity will in its earliest fashion to the most even, you know, magically immature consciousness of a human being will make itself known by your conscience by what you realize is a good thing to do and what is a bad thing to do in its most basic form. And you know, for various reasons, people don’t like to accept that. And those people are not going to have a good time.

    Fred: They’re they’re going to get fooled by a lot of things that they otherwise would not have been fooled by if they had just sat down and done the work, which you know is a sad thing, but as you and I both know, the occult occults itself. If someone’s not ready to put in the work, attain the level of humility, attain the mental, physical, and spiritual state necessary to engage with the divine, they’re they’re not going to succeed at engaging with the divine or Akasha or non-dual light, etc.

    James: Once you began working with Franz Bardon’s system and Sixty Skills, particularly with Non-Dual Light, did that deepen or change your experience of the Higher Guardian Angel?

    Bardon, Sixty Skills and the Abramelin Operation

    Fred: Oh absolutely. So the all these different things that I’ve trained, you know, the chiong and the kung fu and so forth. The friends bardon material and the 60 skills material together as well as the way that I achieved hard contact with the holy guardian angel by means of the Abramelin ritual. All those things have come together extremely well. And one of the nice things is also realizing like what I possess versus what someone else possesses from their different experience. So as an example, I don’t know very many people who’ve done the Abramelin. I know maybe five people personally all across the internet basically and I know about 20 or 30 people who have done the Abramelin and gotten hard contact with the Holy Guardian Angel through that way and most of the people that I know who have achieved who’ve done the upper melon and acquired hard contact with the Holy Guardian Angel and the various benefits of the upper melon.

    Fred: All of those people have been ritual magic practitioners. Not really internal power practitioners, but all of them have generally done some means of initiation into usually hermetic ritual magic which generally means for most pe most of them either golden dawn style initiation or they’ve initiated into another magical grimoire such as the u lameen the goetia of Dr. Rudd and like the, you know, the classic quote unquote Solomonic grimmooire material. And then once they’ve spent some time doing that material, then at some point they elected to or they were guided to or told to do the Aubberlon. And then that gives them one heck of a bonus and boost to their ritual magic procedures and so forth.

    Fred: Like a lot of the stuff that they have to do to ensure a safe goetic, you know, that is a demonic magical evocation and so forth. A lot of the material that you see inside of those grimoires is aimed at basically maximizing your Non-Dual Light as much as possible. Essentially, you’ve got your time period of purification. You’ve got the various talismans that are used and consecrated in a certain way. You are, this is one thing that makes a lot of people mad as well, especially in the modern magical community who may or may not really have a positive view of organized religion and so forth.

    Fred: Those grimoires are assuming you are living the lifestyle of an observant religious person from that time period which means you’re going to church on Sunday or you’re going to synagogue on Saturday you are partaking of the Eucharist you’re doing the shem prayer every so many times per day etc to have that foundation so that you can on top of that take in the divine authority that is entrusted to you by the image through the image of God so that you can then compel the spirits to do what you want them to do basically. And once you have for those guys, once you have acquired hard contact with the Holy Guardian Angel, either by doing the Abramelin or something else like the merk of a descent to the throne for example or otherwise, then you kind of always have the access to the divine authority within you because now you have the holy guardian angel with you at all times.

    Fred: So you no longer have to do some of that stuff because the protocols and rituals and effects of the Abramelin or other modes of hard contact with the Holy Guardian Angel basically supersede a lot of the stuff that most ritual practitioners have to do to ensure a safe ritual operation.

    James: Sixty Skills also teaches a conscious way of generating and directing Non-Dual Light. Does having deliberate control of that process change the Abramelin work or contact with the HGA?

    Fred: Oh absolutely. Knowing how to do something well will always make that thing work better. So going to the cultural and knowledge framework of the Abramelin for example straight up that is an Abrahamic style ritual going by the book. Going by the book itself it assumes you are a medieval observant Christian or Jewish person doing all the things a medieval Jewish or Christian person would be doing on a day-to-day basis. That is the assumption of the book. That book does not assume that you already know how to draw down the non-dual light, the heavenly energy, the energy of grace, the light of God, whatever you want to call it. Basically, that book does not even know that skill exists essentially. Now you and I, we both do 60 skills material. We both do material from Franz Bardon as well and so forth.

    Fred: And if you can do that stuff explicitly on your own without the need of ritual, it’s going to work that much better sort of thing. So as an example, I was going through Initiation into Hermetics. I was about step five or so when I got the signal, hey, you need to do the Abramelin now. Like it’s been long enough. You’ve done the homework and so forth. Now you can like really work on not just having the hard contact of the HGA, but also the full knowledge and conversation part as well as the binding of the demons part. That way you’re going to have the rest of your cultivation is going to be way easier that way sort of thing. Now, at that point, you know, I knew how to establish equilibrium of the elements. I knew how to generate Akasha that way. I knew how to generate non-dual light in that fashion.

    Fred: And I also knew how to separately invoke and call down non-dual light through that ritual process. There isn’t a lot of like ritual steps in the Abramelin. A lot of it is literally just you’re going to kneel down in front of the altar and pray until God tells you otherwise kind of thing. But it in the beginning the generating and accessing the non-dual light is were separate skills and then over time you learn with any skill set you know be it martial arts or physical therapy or exercise or meditation methods and so forth.

    Fred: Those kills will gradually merge with one another as you realize hey if I enter into a meditative state of mind before I start my prayers the prayers are that much more effective or oh hey if I follow those mental cues that Bardon mentions in The Practice of Magical Evocation when you enter into the ritual space and you enter into the circle and you realize you are the image of God that enters the center of the universe And when you light the candle, you are bringing the light of divinity and the light of enlightenment into this world. And like all those little steps here and there, you will with experience realize, hey, these things work synergize very well with one another.

    Fred: And these other steps maybe are superfluous now that you’ve learned something from there versus its original source sort of thing. It’s a very long-winded answer to say yes to your question.

    James: So hard contact and the Abramelin operation are not identical. The operation adds Knowledge and Conversation and the binding process. You began it around Step Five, but because you were guided to do so—not because Step Five is a universal starting point.

    Fred: Yeah. Like you know again I had my first contact with the HGA at this point like 11 years ago basically and it took me a while to freaking get around to it kind of thing. The this whole part as you because thanks to various historical factors the Aubberlon is a very famous grimmooire. It’s a very famous ritual. A lot of people have talked about it. A lot of people have talked about the benefits of it as well. So, it’s a natural question. Hey, I’m a random dude who’s interested in magic and interested in the proclaimed benefits of the Abramelin. When should I do it? Basically, now if you actually read IIH, Initiation into Hermetics step five, if you’re going by the book, that is the wrong time to do the operation basically.

    Fred: I absolutely skipped a couple of stages there because, you know, I’m I’m very slow and I did some really stupid basically. If you actually read step five, step five is actually more explicitly about getting soft contact with the holy guardian angel. Yes. There’s the ritual. I’m sorry, not the ritual. There’s the skills training of like using the pendulum and you know making the ghost hand and that sort of thing or like doing mediumistic writing and automatic writing and so forth and basically using all these different techniques to gain the skill of getting that soft contact with the HGA.

    Fred: Now as with all of initiation and hermetics you know a lot of people who actually do the work of IH they’re going to start getting some benefits and abilities before that actual step like really solidifies things because it’s step five that introduces different techniques for soft contact and it’s like I don’t know step seven or something like that before he explicitly and purposely introduces the training of clairvoyance and clairaudience and clairsentience for example. But if you’ve been going through the curriculum, you know, as intended, you’re already going to have some clairvoyance and clairaudience and clairsentience way before step seven actually happens.

    Fred: And likewise, it’s actually step 10 in Initiation into Hermetics where you’re where you’re explicitly told and shown how to get the hard contact of the Holy Guardian Angel through Franz Bardon’s method which is to put it as plainly as possible mental wandering until you find it and the Holy Guardian Angel introduces itself to you essentially. And then if you do things right, then you you get a lot of the experience kind of thing.

    James: Soft contact in Step Five is important because it makes the work tangible. It is often the point where practice stops feeling theoretical and begins to feel undeniably real.

    Fred: Oh, yeah. Exactly. It’s like you realize, all right, have I really been able to like put air into my hands? Can I really do this sort of thing? And then you’re you open your eyes, your real is your hand is like, you know, floating in the in the air essentially like your physical hand like when did my arm move? I didn’t do that kind of.

    James: Another community question asks whether daily hard contact with the HGA is equivalent to establishing elemental equilibrium each day. Are they the same process?

    Equilibrium, Akasha and Non-Dual Light

    Fred: the answer is no to that one there. The ax. So this is one thing that I know that I personally fell into the trap thereof is that we especially in the 60 skills school and especially in just bardon in general we all understand the importance of equinimity. We all understand that equilibrium is important. Like Bob has even explicitly said that much of the system that he teaches is based on if on you operating from a position of equilibrium. We all you know vaguely understand that oh it’s it’s probably good idea that I don’t have you know 10 points of fire and like one point of earth for example. Like we know that bad things are going to happen if you’re that unbalanced kind of thing.

    Fred: That all being said, equilibrium has some very specific benefits depending on how you achieve it because this is something that I’ve posted ad nauseam on the on the Perseus forum as well as on the discord. There are many different ways to achieve equilibrium of some sort. Now from the bardon and especially from the 60 skills side of things how do we judge the success of someone attaining equilibrium now we generally do so or at least I perceive that we do so that based on have you generated Akasha the void energy and have you been able to access non-dual light as a result of that sort of thing like sure you can put a lot of earth in your legs and water in your abdomen and air in the in the chest and fire in the head and you might not generate any Akasha whatsoever. You might not generate that eruption of non-dual light after that either. And that’s I went through that process.

    Fred: I know that I’ve that mistake can be done because I’ve done it myself. But eventually once you know how to really balance out those energies you click into the balance and it’s like oh hey I have generated Akasha and non-dual light through the elements and then you know fast forward some time and it’s like aha I can now do that with the electric and the magnetic fluids and then later on in the Qabbalistic letters aha I can generate Akasha through the letter B for example I can generate Akasha non-dual light and equilibrium and so forth now through the letter G. I’m I’m sorry, not G, the letter F for example. And those are some of the major benefits of having the skill of equilibrium, balancing out energies, putting them in their place, generating Akasha, and generating the access to non-dual light.

    James: A practitioner can fill the four bodily regions with the elements and still only feel heavily charged rather than balanced. How can someone tell whether genuine equilibrium has actually been established?

    James: What is the transition from merely filling the regions, to equilibrium, and then to the recognisable signs of Akasha?

    Fred: Yeah absolutely. So this is a part of the story where I’m basically gonna flagrantly plagiarize Bob from 60 Skills because frankly speaking, like practicing the way that he taught me was how I got it essentially. So in Initiation into Hermetics, I think it’s like step four. I’m pretty sure it’s step four, maybe step five, where he formally introduces the equilibrium of the elements exercise. And you know for the longest time I was filling up the various bodily regions with you know earth here, water here etc. And then I was just sitting around like you know four inflated balloons on top of one another essentially like I just assumed oh equilibrium must be this like hyperelementally charged state and I just assumed that was it.

    Fred: That was not it of course don’t do that basically but eventually you know you want to call it divine providence dumb luck whatever I ran into you know Bob’s YouTube channel and he talks talked a lot about equilibrium and then he also talked about oh it’s actually not that you feel hypercharged with all four elements it’s they actually balance one another out and at some point you might actually feel all the elements disappear from one another sort of thing like there’s a sudden emptiness so to speak as everything perfectly balances everything out and then once I started paying attention to that I realized oh hey I actually did put a little bit too much water over here or I actually do feel the fire up top is pulling too much on the water below I need to balance that out a little bit and then eventually more and more I’d feel the elements canceling one another out rather than just like rubbing friction against one another so to speak.

    Fred: And then once those experiences of balance and almost canceling each other out started getting more common then I started noticing the visual appearance of the Akasha that he talks about like those flashes of purple energy in the periphery of the vision and so forth and over time started hearing the shearing of metal and that penetrating dissolving sensation. And then once that started happening the majority of times of my attempts of establishing equilibrium then I realized aha this is it. I have I have the experience. I have the Akasha. I can use the Akasha itself as an energy. I must be moving along in my experience.

    Fred: And then you know fast forward some time after that once I was in the Akasha I started realizing oh hey that dark purple is now giving way to this brilliant white beyond white energy and then I realized over time oh wow that’s that’s the non-dual light that’s the heavenly energy sort of thing and yeah then it was off to the races.

    James: My own experience is that the perception develops gradually, rather like the eyes adjusting to a dark room. The practitioner may need to remain in that state long enough for the spaciousness and dark-purple quality to become apparent, rather than declaring the attempt a failure too quickly.

    Fred: Absolutely. Like that is one of the things that I will wholeheartedly kind of like you know crap on Bardon so to speak there is that you know he lived in a time and a place where people had a certain background understanding of esoterics or maybe they didn’t they lived a particular lifestyle that made their bodies you know in a certain way and they also had a certain understanding of language. Yeah. Now, Bardon, you know, I’m I’m an English speaker. I’ve got English and Spanish and that’s it basically. I don’t know German. I don’t know Czech. So, I don’t know how Bardon may have written in his mother language. However, I’ve got the Merker publishing edition of Initiation in Hermetics, which again is a physical book in a different language that requires an economy of space. Mhm.

    Fred: So, you know, Bardon naturally and his translator and editor, they had to skip a lot of material. They had to say, “Hey, you’ve only got, you know, I don’t know, 200, 300 pages of text, and that’s all we can publish for you.” So, you know, quite naturally, he had to leave some stuff out. So in like step five or step six, I forget which step when he is explicitly talking about entering into the Akasha and like doing the center point exercise that he talks about. Yeah. Like you know he basically says like hey imagine yourself in the middle of a infinite dimensionless space and you know most people aren’t gonna know what the hell he’s talking about there.

    James: One of the strengths of Sixty Skills is that Bob fills in the missing steps. That allows newer practitioners to progress much faster than many of us did.

    Fred: I mean, you know, you flown. I mean you started I started in 2008 you know and it took me a good 15 years to get rolling and I feel the same way about the people coming after me. It’s like, oh damn, that guy just like for example, there’s one member of the u of the 60 skills community that I talked with them about qigong, for example. It took me six months before I had my first like yes, this is absolutely energy kind of experience. He did he pulled it off in like two days essentially and I’m like dude

    James: I see people who began only months ago producing work that took others years to reach. Better instruction can shorten the path considerably.

    Fred: Oh yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. The fact that you know I make mistakes. You’ve you’ve made your decisions. I’ve made my decisions. I’ve made a lot of mistakes. Like one of my big things not just in the magical community but also in my like regular day-to-day job and everything is I feel very strongly about education and I also understand the importance of time and I don’t want people to waste as much time as I did being able to do what I can do basically like I feel very strongly about that being an ethical obligation of teachers and anyone who shares their experience like you should be better than me kind of

    James: That is one of the reasons Perseus exists: too much time is wasted through poor teaching and missing information. Let’s move to another practical aspect of your work.

    James: In your reports, you often describe allowing an energy or letter to continue running for hours while you go about daily life. For readers outside Sixty Skills, what does that mean, and how does continuous practice contribute to your progress?

    Streaming Energy Through Daily Life

    Fred: Oh, absolutely. So, yeah. So, in terms of definitions, again, I’m I’m gonna heavily plagiarize Bob just because he’s done a lot of great work and like why reinvent the wheel, so to speak. And so, I’m I’m going to, like you said, I don’t want to, you know, financially steal from him or anything. So, I’m going to stick to like what he’s already said publicly, basically. So when we talk about you know streaming energy through the day essentially for the for the folks who have not read Bob’s articles on Perseus or on his blog or on it or watched his videos on the Perseus YouTube channel and on Bob’s own YouTube channel he talks extensively about a methodology called the ball above head method or the BAH method. Sometimes the ball overhead method.

    Fred: And in energetics the esoteric anatomy of someone includes not just you know the meridians the energy channels that people talk about especially in Tibetan and Chinese traditional medicine but also energy fields like natural collections of energy in the body. In the Chinese u terminology you might hear the term dantian for example elixir field. So different energy fields of the body and different meridians of the body are very well suited for channeling focusing gathering and otherwise using various forms of energy. Like for example, the ball above head method is great for collecting energy from the overall cosmos, the overall universe, especially at an Akashic level, like the level that is beyond time and beyond space sort of thing.

    Fred: For further details, you’re going to have to look at Bob’s specific meth materials there for the audience.

    Fred: And eventually you know that energy flows and streams down through the body accessing different subtle bodies including the mental body, the astral body etc and you know eventually making it to the physical body where you can have your physical effects and so forth or effects in the physical world or if you look at The Key to the True Quabbalah by France Martin for example also effects in the astral world the mental world etc Now for most orthodox schools of energy cultivation and so forth generally they get their benefits during the actual formal training session and maybe for a little bit afterwards and then when they’re in their dayto-day whatever they do on a regular basis if they want those benefits back sometimes they have to you know go off to the side and form normally do an exercise to like reactivate those benefits as an example.

    Fred: Or maybe they have to go into a deep state of meditation, breathe in a certain way, you know, focus on a sigil or whatever, whatever. And that like reactivates the energy of their previous training or it unlocks some energy they have stored in their body already. Now what we do with the 60 skills training and so forth is we are allowing this energy to flow and stream through the body continuously even if you’re not explicitly paying attention to it. So as an example right now I’m working on the Qabbalistic letter F as an example with a part of the Sunday cabala practice group and so forth. Like even right now I’m streaming the energy of the letter F. I have been doing that all day since I woke up basically.

    Fred: There’s the particular exercise that you do, you know, you’re like formal quote unquote exercise and then you let the energy continue streaming in the background through the day. You know, it is a skill that can be trained. It’s funny thing. Someone just yesterday on the u on the Discord server actually DM’d me asking me like, “Hey, hey Fred, how do you stream it in the background?” so I guess I’m going to talk about it again right now. The long and short of it is that almost any skill can be trained. There are very few things that are accessible only to like a natural prodigy or a natural talent. I am a living example of that. I don’t have natural talent at anything.

    Fred: Everything that I’ve developed has been through, you know, the long way of, you know, headbutting a wall until the wall breaks down essentially. I learn a lot that way, but it’s also very slow. So, so I’ve benefited greatly from my various teachers who have shown me a better way of doing things. Like Bob as an example. And basically the skill of running the energy in the background can be built as a and trained as a skill like anything else. You know, first you are formally doing the exercise and then you know maybe after your formal exercise you know you walk around your training room you’re not doing anything complicated. You’re not paying attention to anything.

    Fred: You’re just making sure that the energy you cultivated is still going on while you’re walking around doing nothing interesting. You know, something very easy and basic like that. And then maybe you take it a step further. You walk in a place that’s a little bit more visually interesting. You go through for a walk in the garden. You go through the park. You walk outside. There’s more things that can possibly distract you. But then you use that as an opportunity to train to keep that energy running in the background. And then you move on to something more complicated like having a very boring conversation about the weather with someone as an example or whatever else.

    Fred: Or maybe you run the energy while you’re doing another kind of exercise like when you’re going for a jog or you’re lifting weights or you’re cooking a basic meal or you’re watching television. You just check in every so often. Ah yes the energy is still running in the background or oh wait I lost it I have to restart it kind of thing and then you know over time the skill gets built up and it is it is a thing that can and will be achieved as long as someone puts in the effort for it.

    James: That continuous approach is crucial. When a practice requires ten or twenty hours of exposure, streaming allows the practitioner to use ordinary daily time rather than relying only on formal sessions.

    Fred: Oh, absolutely.

    James: Before we finish, I want to discuss one of your reports in particular: your encounter with the gnomes.

    Fred: No, we can share it. It’s fine.

    James: Could you describe how clearly you perceived them, whether the experience occurred through inner vision or clairvoyance, and what distinguished the encounter from imagination? This was also one of your first experiences with gnomes, and something significant was given to you during it.

    Mental Wandering and the Gnomes

    Fred: Sounds good. But yeah, the so part of that whole like the context behind that whole experience is I’m I’m still going through Initiation into Hermetics. I’m still on step 10 right now. And step 10 part of the training involves you know projecting yourself to the various other realms plains of existence especially the elemental planes. And you know, Franz Bardon gives a particular way of doing things. And the long and short of it is he recommends that you essentially mentally shapeshift yourself into the form of whatever entity exists in the location you’re going to go to. Which is one of the reasons behind the mental and astral shape-shifting of the previous steps.

    Fred: Building up a lot of the energy of the location you’re going to go to like earth energy for the earth plane and then you get yourself over there kind of thing and when I got there u you know I followed his procedure I popped on over to the earth plane and when I got there this was all eyes clo like physical eyes closed so to use some of the terminology the internal or eyes closed osed clairvoyance like seeing things, hearing things, not with the physical sensory organs, but rather like it’s in your own head sort of thing. For the people who I know this is going to make people mad and everything, but it’s like you’re imagining a scene in your own imagination kind of thing.

    Fred: Like that degree of seeing something, hearing something, or even just remembering a memory and like living through a memory, like that kind of hearing and seeing things. We’ll get to like, you know, vetting the information here in a little bit if we still have time. Regardless, you know, the way I generally appear in the Earth plane is usually in some various underground caverns, there may or may not be light. Sometimes the only light, you know, quote unquote present is lanterns and torches being carried by other beings inside of the earth plane. At least that’s how I’ve noticed things when I do my mental wandering to the earth plane. And at that point, you know, I’ve already done I’ve already had hard contact with a Holy Guardian Angel for some time at that point and whatnot there.

    Fred: And I had realized that if you just show up to another plane, and you’re just like blazing with the light of divinity and so forth there, it’s kind of like you just showed up with a disco ball and it’s like, “Hey everyone, look at me. I’ve got the light of God with me,” etc. Kind of thing. It it can make some of those beings very uncomfortable to suddenly have like, you know, America’s July 4th happen in their backyard, basically. So that’s that is one reason why, you know, Bardon and some other people recommend, you know, changing your mental shape to the shape of the beings in your target location kind of thing because you want to be a good neighbor, so to speak, and you want to be polite.

    Fred: So I’m doing my wandering around the around the Earth plane and so forth, and I start getting the impression, hey, I should I should do some stuff. Maybe I should introduce myself to some of the like the quote-unquote nobility and like the lords of the earth plane and so forth. And eventually I get introduced to one gnome who introduces me to another gnome and so forth. And one of these gnomes was like, “Hey, part of the conversation, this is going to sound, you know, very religious and so forth. It’s like, oh, I see that you’re a human. I see that you have the an angel with you, the light of the divine with you. Can you teach me like how I can access this heavenly light basically? And I’m like, okay.

    Fred: So, you know, I taught him I taught the gnome a couple of things and the gnome’s like, “Ah, thank you so much. Here’s here’s a gift for you.” I’m like, “Oh, cool.” And you know, I checked with the holy guardian angel first because, hey, this is a gift from a spirit entity. Do I have to be suspicious about this kind of thing? Which is one of the major benefits of having hard contact with the holy guardian angel? Just being able to straight up ask a being, “Is this a good idea? Yes or no?” kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, they give me the stone. It’s like a small stone. It looks red and so forth. And I got the impression, oh, this is a grounding stone.

    Fred: It is very good for, you know, establishing earth and, you know, bringing things down back into focus and back into balance and so forth there. As a hilarious thing I literally just now realized telling the story. It has the idea of the letter F like pulling things back into back into balance and back into focus and so forth. So yeah, I didn’t see that coming. Anyways, so now I have this stone. Now I have this rock that provides balance and so forth. It is a purely energetic object. Is it is not a physical object like a physical rock did not suddenly appear in my training space for example in my home here and that’d be funny but yeah but then you know eventually the that earth noble gnome introduces me to a couple other beings I teach them also how to how to generate the heavenly light the non-dual light and so forth and they we some fun conversations and I return back to my physical form, my physical location and so forth. And now I have this magical rock in my inventory that I don’t know what to do about it basically. So I start experimenting with it because Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

    James: Please continue. It is a remarkable account.

    Fred: Yeah. Yeah. So, this is one of the other things that I also got from the holy guardian angel is that one of the things just as background that a lot of people are not like they’re like, “Oh, I can’t do magic. I can’t I don’t have a temple altar. I don’t have a wand made of this special wood. I don’t have the funny hat and the funny robes and the funny belt and everything like that.” so, they’re like, “Oh, I can’t do this stuff.” one of the things that the Holy Guardian Angel gave me among other things was essentially you know I call it teaching the lesson of the object so to speak. For example, in The Practice of Magical Evocation, Bardon goes over like pretty much every form of ritual object you can think of, like the sword, the wand, the crown, etc., etc., and like this is what the crown means, this is what the wand means, and so forth.

    Fred: And getting hard contact with the Holy Guardian Angel really helped me utilize those lessons quote unquote so that now I can benefit from you know having such a magical object even if I don’t actually have the physical object basically like Alexander Moore for example talks about when you generate the body of light and so forth you know making you know astral weapons and astral objects and so forth that your subtle bodies can benefit from and so forth. It’s kind of like that in a way.

    James: It is valuable to hear the account in your own words after reading your written report. We are approaching the end of the conversation.

    Fred: Oh, yeah. I went over. Sorry about that.

    James: Your answers have addressed the community’s questions in much greater depth than a simple question-by-question format would have allowed. Before we close, is there anything you consider especially important for practitioners to understand about the work we have discussed?

    Final Advice and Closing

    Fred: Yeah. There’s a lot that I want to say honestly, but I can always rant more on the Discord later on, but the this going to I want to end on a on a high note basically rather than like my usual negative note. But that all being said, if you’re going to follow a process, do the process appropriately and buy the book. Don’t try to change things without having a damn good reason to do so kind of thing.

    James: That is an important point.

    Fred: At least, I guess.

    James: Slow and steady often becomes the quickest path.

    Fred: Oh, exactly. I like that.

    James: Trying to force progress can lead to doing twice the work and ending up back at the beginning.

    James: Bardon’s system and Sixty Skills complement one another extremely well. Together they provide a broader and more detailed method than either may offer alone. Fred, thank you for such a thorough and inspiring conversation.

    Fred: Sounds good.

    James: That was Fred. I hope you found the conversation as useful as I did. Even when practitioners work with similar methods, hearing how another person experiences and understands them can reveal both important overlaps and meaningful differences. Details of the material discussed are included below. Fred is active in both the Sixty Skills Discord and the Perseus community. Thank you for reading or watching, and please share the conversation with anyone who may find it useful.

  • Franz Bardon and the Missing Path with Erwin Pitsch: Inner Alchemy, the Sacred Letters and Liberation

    Franz Bardon and the Missing Path with Erwin Pitsch: Inner Alchemy, the Sacred Letters and Liberation

    Introduction

    In our first interview with Erwin Pitsch, we explored the extraordinary breadth of his path—from his early practice of Franz Bardon’s system and involvement in Rosicrucian and Martinist traditions to Kerning, yoga, the Jhānas, Theosis and the possibility of the Rainbow Body. That conversation introduced a practitioner whose conclusions were shaped not by loyalty to a single school, but by decades of sustained work across Western esotericism and Eastern contemplative traditions.

    In this second interview, we move beyond the broad map and ask a more difficult question: what remains after someone has gone as far as Bardon’s published system can take them? Pitsch continues to regard Initiation into Hermetics as one of the strongest practical training systems available in the West, but argues that Bardon’s work remains incomplete as a path of inner alchemy and liberation.

    The discussion examines what he calls the missing keys: right view, dependent origination, non-self, the Jhānas, the formless attainments, cessation and the direct transformation of consciousness. We also explore the living work of the sacred letters, the distinction between magical ability and genuine liberation, the strengths and limitations of Rosicrucian systems such as AAORRAC and OARC, and why advanced practice may ultimately require less accumulation and more relinquishment.

    What follows is not a copy of the first interview. It is a sharper reassessment of the purpose of magical training itself—and of the point at which developing the powers of the mind must give way to understanding the nature of mind

    Disclaimer: We understand that discussions about influential figures such as Franz Bardon can inspire strong feelings, and that people may become defensive when deeply held beliefs are questioned. We present questions, answers, and opinions to encourage open and respectful discussion. Agreement is not required; thoughtful dialogue, even when perspectives differ, is healthy and valuable for everyone.


    Bardon and the Missing Keys

    PAA: In our previous interview, you described Bardon’s training as a system that genuinely works and said that you were nearly finished with it. You have since said that Bardon is the only publicly available Western system that works, but that it remains incomplete in terms of inner alchemy and finishing the path. What has become clearer in your understanding since our first interview?

    Franz Bardon created what is, in my opinion, one of the clearest and most systematic introductions to Western esoteric training ever published. His method presents a logical progression that anyone with discipline can follow. Rather than overwhelming the student with endless theory, he provides practical exercises that gradually develop concentration, imagination, elemental balance, willpower, and the conscious direction of vital force, known in various traditions as prana or chi. His concept of achieving equilibrium between the four elements within one’s own psyche is particularly important, because this inner balance becomes the foundation upon which many higher faculties can safely develop. It is no coincidence that countless practitioners have reported genuine progress through his system.

    As I advanced through the later stages of Bardon’s work, however, its limitations became increasingly apparent. His explanation of the mental body remains relatively simple and never develops into a comprehensive understanding of consciousness beyond the physical plane. While he introduces the concept of mental wandering, he offers very little explanation of the structure of the various subtle interdimensional realms and its residents, the principles governing interdimensional travel, or the precautions required when entering those states. These are not merely technical omissions but important areas where the practitioner is left largely to discover the path through personal experience.

    The same applies to the practices of evocation. Although The Practice of Magical Evocation presents an impressive catalogue of intelligences and symbolic structures, the practical instructions are often extremely difficult to implement successfully. Many sincere students spend years attempting these operations without ever obtaining consistent results, largely because the underlying mechanics of consciousness are not fully explained. Bardon’s third volume, The Key to the True Quabbalah, is even more challenging. While it contains profound insights, much of it reads more like an outline or script than a complete manual, requiring knowledge that is simply not supplied within the text itself.

    One of the greatest insights that became clear through my own practice concerns Bardon’s work with the Hermetic letters. Contrary to the common assumption that one must intellectually memorise every colour, elemental correspondence, sensation, musical note, and symbolic association, I found that this eventually becomes unnecessary. Once the practitioner has reached sufficient meditative depth and genuine inner perception, the letters themselves begin to reveal their own qualities directly. Their elemental nature, colours, vibrations, and functions arise spontaneously within consciousness as living experiences rather than as concepts remembered from a table. At that stage, the letters are no longer visualisations imposed by the intellect. They become living principles that communicate their own reality to the practitioner.

    This realisation fundamentally changed my understanding of inner alchemy. Intellectual memorisation is useful during the early stages, but direct perception eventually replaces conceptual knowledge. The letters become teachers in their own right, revealing layers of meaning that no written correspondence can adequately describe.

    PAA: When you say that Bardon is the only publicly available Western system that “works,” what precisely do you mean? Does it reliably develop concentration and magical faculties, transform the personality, take the practitioner towards liberation, or accomplish some combination of these?

    What I mean is that Franz Bardon created a systematic and remarkably simple training method that genuinely produces results. If the exercises are followed with discipline, the practitioner develops concentration, imagination, elemental equilibrium, conscious control of attention, and eventually experiences that go far beyond ordinary visualization. It is one of the very few Western systems that consistently enables genuine mental wandering, practical work with elemental forces, and direct experience rather than mere theory.

    At the same time, as I pointed out earlier, its limitations become increasingly apparent once the practitioner progresses beyond Step Six. Bardon lays an excellent foundation, but many of the higher aspects of consciousness, inner alchemy, interdimensional navigation, and the final stages of liberation remain only partially explained or are left largely undeveloped.

    My conclusion is not based on reading Bardon alone. I spent years living in India and Africa, studying a wide range of wisdom traditions, eventually becoming a Yoga Acharya, and working through virtually every major Rosicrucian system and degree available in the West. After decades of comparative practice, I still regard Bardon’s Initiation into Hermetics as the only publicly available Western system that functions as a complete, practical training course from beginning to the intermediate stages. It reliably develops concentration, elemental balance, imaginative faculties, and practical magical abilities through direct experience rather than belief.

    Most other Western esoteric systems eventually lose themselves in elaborate symbolism, speculative philosophy, or rituals that create the appearance of initiation without producing corresponding inner transformation. Too often they become costume balls rather than schools of genuine practice. Symbols certainly have their place, but symbols alone do not cultivate wisdom, concentration, or direct insight. Practice does.

    That is why I continue to recommend Bardon as the best starting point for Western practitioners. It is not perfect, and it is certainly not the final word on the path to liberation, but it remains, in my experience, the most effective publicly available Western curriculum for developing the mind through systematic practice.

    Rather than approaching letters as abstract symbols, they should be approached as living principles.

    Erwin Pitsch

    PAA: You have described Bardon’s three books as three keys out of a larger structure of twenty-two or possibly fifty-six keys, corresponding to the first three Tarot cards. What exactly is a key, why are there two possible totals, and where does this larger structure originate?

    I personally would not encourage students to spend years studying Tarot symbolism or the Hebrew alphabet in the hope that these systems will eventually reveal profound truths. They certainly possess historical and symbolic value, but in my experience, they often become intellectual frameworks rather than living practice. I would even go so far as to recommend putting those systems aside for a time and allowing the letters themselves to become the teacher.

    Language is not merely a human invention. It is one of the fundamental building blocks through which we structure and interact with reality. Every spoken letter requires a precise configuration of the body, the breath, the tongue, the palate and the vocal apparatus. Those physical actions are inseparable from subtle mental and energetic processes. Rather than approaching letters as abstract symbols, they should be approached as living principles.

    This understanding is not unique to one tradition. Similar approaches appear in Nada Yoga, Daoist internal cultivation, the Hurufi tradition within Islam, and in the work of Johann Baptist Kerning. These systems recognise that the letters are not simply signs on paper. They are vibratory realities that gradually reveal their own qualities through direct practice.

    When I refer to “keys,” I am speaking about progressive stages of access to these living principles of consciousness. Bardon’s three published books can be understood as only the first keys of a much larger system. Whether that complete system originally consisted of twenty-two or fifty-six keys remains uncertain. Various esoteric traditions have preserved different fragments, and I do not regard either number as definitively established. What is important is not the arithmetic but the recognition that Bardon’s published work appears to represent only the beginning of a much larger body of practical knowledge.

    The essential point is that no amount of symbolism can replace direct experience. The letters reveal themselves only when the practitioner has developed the necessary inner conditions. These include moral integrity, purity of intention, concentration, right view, right effort and a disciplined mind. In Buddhist terminology, the development of the jhānas provides the collectedness required for this work. From the perspective of Bardon, the same function is served through elemental equilibrium and the Akashic trance.

    Even the first jhāna provides sufficient mental stability for meaningful work with the letters to begin. As concentration deepens through the higher absorptions, the letters gradually cease to be sounds or concepts and become direct experiences. At that point they begin to reveal qualities that cannot be adequately explained in books. The practitioner is no longer interpreting symbols. The letters themselves become the teacher.

    PAA: Bardon’s three books include magical equilibrium, mental and astral development, theurgy, contact with spiritual intelligences, the Akasha principle and Quabbalistic creation. What remains unavailable after someone has genuinely completed Initiation into Hermetics, The Practice of Magical Evocation and The Key to the True Quabbalah?

    Bardon’s system should never be seen as the destination. It is the beginning of one’s own practice. His first two books provide a systematic foundation, while The Key to the True Quabbalah is, in my opinion, more of a script or outline than a complete training manual. It points towards a much larger body of work without fully explaining how to accomplish it.

    After genuinely completing all three books, the practitioner has acquired a remarkable foundation: mental discipline, elemental equilibrium, conscious work with the Akasha principle, practical evocation, and the initial mastery of the creative power of the letters. Yet this is still only the threshold of a far greater journey.

    The real work begins when those abilities are applied beyond the exercises themselves. One must learn to navigate the various interdimensional realms safely, understand the principles governing those dimensions, and develop the discernment required to interact with spiritual intelligences without projection or self-deception. Advanced evocation is not simply the ability to call an intelligence into a circle. It is the capacity to consciously enter the realms in which those intelligences exist, communicate with them directly, and eventually function within those worlds with clarity and stability.

    Likewise, mastering the letters is not the end of the path but only one aspect of it. The letters gradually become living realities that continue to unfold over many years of practice. Their deeper functions cannot be learned intellectually but reveal themselves through direct experience and increasing states of absorption.

    Bardon himself repeatedly referred to many additional “Tarot cards,” implying that his three published books represented only the first portion of a much larger system. Whether those remaining teachings were ever written down is impossible to say. My own conclusion is that they were never intended to be learned from books alone.

    Beyond the foundation Bardon provides, knowledge increasingly comes through practice itself. As the practitioner deepens the work with the letters, develops higher states of consciousness, and gains experience in interdimensional exploration and authentic contact with spiritual intelligences, the path becomes progressively self-revealing. Books become less important. Direct experience becomes the teacher. That, in my view, is where Bardon’s published system ends and the genuine work of the adept truly begins.

    PAA: You have said that liberation and inner alchemy are missing from Bardon’s published work. What does inner alchemy mean here in practical rather than symbolic terms? What is transformed within the practitioner, and how can that transformation be recognized?

    What I mean by inner alchemy is not the symbolic transformation found in medieval alchemy or later occult traditions. I am referring to a direct transformation of consciousness itself. Bardon’s system develops remarkable mental discipline, imagination, elemental equilibrium and magical faculties, but it largely remains within the framework of what I would call the false self, the ordinary sense of being a separate individual who is the doer and owner of experience.

    Virtually every authentic wisdom tradition eventually points beyond this. In Buddhism it is expressed through anattā, the direct realization that no permanent, independent self can be found. This insight arises together with the direct observation of dependent origination, seeing that every thought, feeling, perception and action arises because of causes and conditions rather than an enduring “I.” Similar insights appear in advanced Daoism, Advaita Vedanta and Christian mysticism, although they are described in different language.

    This dimension is almost entirely absent from Bardon’s published work. There is no systematic instruction leading the practitioner beyond identification with the mind itself. As a result, many practitioners develop impressive magical abilities while remaining identified with the very structure that ultimately limits further development.

    In my experience, this identification is precisely what prevents the deeper capacities of consciousness from unfolding naturally. As long as there remains the conviction that “I am the magician” or “I am the one performing these operations,” there is still a subtle contraction that separates the practitioner from direct reality.

    Inner alchemy is therefore the gradual dissolution of that contraction. It is the purification of perception until awareness no longer revolves around an imagined centre. This transformation is not achieved through ritual, evocation or intellectual understanding, but through direct meditative experience.

    The practical path begins with ethical purification and collectedness of mind, progresses through the eight jhānas, deepens into the experience of the still mind and the signless state, and culminates in cessation, where even perception and feeling temporarily cease. These experiences fundamentally transform how reality is perceived. When consciousness returns, the illusion of a permanent self has been profoundly weakened or entirely dissolved.

    This transformation can be recognised quite easily. The practitioner no longer seeks magical powers as personal achievements. Craving, fear and psychological reactivity diminish. Compassion arises naturally rather than being cultivated as a virtue. Action becomes increasingly spontaneous, effortless and free from self-reference. The magical faculties, rather than disappearing, often become clearer because they are no longer distorted by personal ambition or identification.

    For this reason, I regard liberation not as something separate from magical development but as its necessary completion. Bardon’s work builds an extraordinary foundation, yet the path of inner alchemy begins where his published books largely end.

    PAA: Is Bardon incomplete because particular exercises and initiations are absent, or because his existing exercises are normally approached from an incorrect understanding of the self, magical development and the final goal?

    Franz Bardon himself never claimed to have written a complete system. His training is explicitly based on the first three cards of the Book of Thoth, making it an introduction to a much larger body of esoteric knowledge rather than a finished path. Initiation into Hermetics provides an exceptionally well-structured framework for developing concentration, imagination, elemental equilibrium, willpower and the manipulation of vital force. One of its greatest strengths is that students achieve tangible results relatively early, allowing confidence to grow through direct personal experience rather than blind belief.

    The incompleteness of Bardon’s work, however, is not simply that certain advanced exercises or initiations are missing. It is also that the system does not address the deeper transformation of consciousness that lies at the heart of the great contemplative traditions. There is virtually no discussion of the progressive thresholds of meditative development, such as the yogic samādhis or the Buddhist jhānas, nor of the cultivation of profound stillness that ultimately dissolves identification with the ordinary sense of self.

    Most importantly, the principle of anattā, or non self, is entirely absent. Bardon’s exercises are generally practised from the perspective of an individual practitioner who develops increasingly refined magical abilities. In my view, this eventually becomes the greatest limitation of the system. As long as the practitioner continues to identify with the false self, that identification itself becomes the final obstacle. The deeper capacities of consciousness are not unlocked merely through accumulating techniques or magical skills, but through seeing directly the conditioned nature of the self and allowing that illusion to dissolve.

    For this reason, I see Bardon’s work as an outstanding introduction to systematic mental training, but not as the completion of the path. It builds a remarkably strong foundation, yet the final stages require a shift from developing the mind to understanding the nature of mind itself. That transition, found in traditions such as advanced Yoga and early Buddhism, is what transforms technical proficiency into genuine liberation.

    These include the progressive experience of travelling the interdimensional realms, the attainment of the eight jhānas, followed by the experience of the still mind, the signless condition, and ultimately the cessation of feeling and perception.

    Erwin Pitsch

    PAA: What is the eventual result of the remaining keys? What becomes possible through the complete work that cannot be achieved through Bardon’s three published books alone?

    The answer becomes apparent only after the practitioner has crossed certain thresholds of consciousness that Bardon himself never describes in his published work. These include the progressive experience of travelling the interdimensional realms, the attainment of the eight jhānas, followed by the experience of the still mind, the signless condition, and ultimately the cessation of feeling and perception. These are not simply deeper meditative states. They fundamentally transform the practitioner’s relationship to consciousness itself.

    It is at this point that the remaining keys begin to reveal their purpose. The goal is no longer the refinement of magical technique or the acquisition of further abilities, but the direct realization of the nature of mind. As the illusion of a separate self dissolves, consciousness functions from an entirely different foundation. Magical practice ceases to be an act of personal will and instead becomes an expression of natural law, free from the distortions of egoic identification.

    This is why I regard Franz Bardon’s published work as the introduction to a much larger and more complete system. His books establish an exceptional foundation by cultivating discipline, imagination, elemental equilibrium and practical experience. They prepare the practitioner remarkably well. However, they stop before introducing the stages of consciousness that complete the inner transformation.

    Without those remaining stages, the practitioner may become highly proficient in magical practice while still operating from the ordinary sense of self. Once those thresholds have been crossed, the purpose of the earlier training becomes fully apparent. The exercises are no longer ends in themselves, but preparatory steps toward liberation, wisdom and a mode of consciousness from which the deeper capacities of the human being naturally unfold.

    Wrong View and the Purpose of Practice

    PAA: You have said that Western practitioners often attempt transformation from wrong view, which consequently produces wrong effort and wrong focus. What is the central wrong view underlying most Western magical practice?

    Right view is the foundation of the entire path. Without it, every effort, no matter how disciplined or sincere, is ultimately directed by misunderstanding. This is why the Buddha placed right view as the first factor of the Noble Eightfold Path. It determines the direction of every other practice.

    The central wrong view underlying much of Western magical practice is the assumption that there is a permanent individual self that must become more powerful, more enlightened, or more spiritually advanced. The practitioner identifies with the mind, personality and will, and then seeks to perfect that identity through magical training. The entire system becomes centred on acquiring abilities, gaining knowledge, contacting spiritual beings, or mastering hidden forces. While these practices may produce genuine experiences and measurable results, they often reinforce the very sense of self that the contemplative traditions identify as the root of suffering.

    In Theravāda, right view begins with understanding the Four Noble Truths, karma, dependent origination, and the universal characteristics of existence: impermanence, unsatisfactoriness and non self. Through careful observation in meditation, one discovers that every thought, emotion, sensation and perception arises due to conditions and passes away according to conditions. Nowhere within this continuous process can a permanent, independent self be found.

    This insight fundamentally changes the purpose of practice. Meditation is no longer undertaken to become a more powerful individual, but to understand reality exactly as it is. Concentration, the jhānas, mindfulness and wisdom are cultivated not as achievements to possess, but as conditions that allow direct insight into dependent origination and the cessation of clinging.

    When right view matures, effort also changes. Instead of striving to accumulate spiritual attainments, the practitioner gradually abandons craving, attachment and identification. The path becomes one of letting go rather than acquiring. Liberation is recognised not as the perfection of the self, but as freedom from the mistaken belief that such a permanent self ever existed.

    This is where I experience many Western esoteric systems to become limited. They are often exceptionally effective at developing the faculties of the mind, yet they rarely question the one who claims ownership of those faculties. Without right view, extraordinary experiences can simply become further objects of attachment. With right view, every practice becomes part of a process leading toward wisdom, liberation and the direct realization of reality beyond the illusion of self.

    PAA: You also say that practice from within gradually leads to right view, which then produces right effort. How can practice begin correcting wrong view when the practitioner necessarily begins the work from that wrong view?

    Every practitioner begins from some degree of wrong view. If complete right view were already present, there would be no path to walk. The purpose of practice is precisely to replace conceptual understanding with direct experience.

    Franz Bardon himself understood this to a degree. Throughout Initiation into Hermetics, he repeatedly emphasizes the importance of the practitioner’s inner attitude and the state of mind from which the exercises are undertaken. His training encourages self-observation, honesty and gradual transformation through experience rather than blind belief. In this respect, the system provides an excellent beginning.

    The difficulty is that the destination is never fully defined. In the great wisdom traditions, right view is clearly explained from the outset. Whether one studies early Buddhism, classical Yoga, Advaita, Daoism or the Christian contemplative tradition, the practitioner is given a clear understanding of the ultimate goal: liberation from ignorance, direct knowledge of reality, and freedom from identification with the separate self. The practices are then understood as methods leading toward that realization.

    By contrast, most Western esoteric traditions never clearly establish this foundation. Over generations, many Rosicrucian orders, magical schools, occult societies and even branches of the Theosophical movement developed increasingly elaborate cosmologies, rituals and symbolic systems while gradually losing sight of the essential purpose of spiritual practice. Students often came to believe that initiation, hidden knowledge, magical powers or hierarchical advancement constituted spiritual progress. In many cases, they no longer possessed a clear understanding of what liberation actually meant, or why the practices were originally undertaken.

    Nevertheless, sincere practice still has the potential to correct wrong view. As concentration deepens, mindfulness becomes continuous, and the mind grows quieter, the practitioner begins to observe directly that thoughts, emotions and perceptions arise and pass away according to conditions. This direct observation gradually weakens previously held assumptions and opens the possibility of genuine right view emerging through experience rather than philosophy alone.

    The difference is that traditions grounded in right view deliberately guide this process toward insight into dependent origination, non-self and liberation. Systems that lack this framework may still produce remarkable experiences, but practitioners often interpret those experiences through the very misconceptions they have never been taught to question. As a result, genuine transformation can become delayed, not because the practices are ineffective, but because the framework through which they are understood remains incomplete.

    PAA: Can Bardon’s practices be reoriented through the Buddhist understanding of dependent origination and non-self, or does the attempt to strengthen and master the personality and subtle bodies inevitably reinforce the illusion of a separate self?

    In my view, they can be reoriented, but only if the practitioner’s understanding changes first. Wisdom, or prajñā, cannot be borrowed from books, teachers or traditions. It develops through one’s own practice and direct observation of experience. Every genuine wisdom tradition ultimately points to this same principle: truth must be realized, not merely believed.

    Bardon’s exercises themselves are not the problem. They are practical methods for developing concentration, imagination, vitality and discipline. Like any tool, however, they are interpreted according to the understanding of the person using them. If the practitioner believes that the purpose of the path is to strengthen a separate spiritual identity, accumulate powers or perfect an enduring personality, then the practices are likely to reinforce that identification.

    If, on the other hand, the practitioner has developed right view through direct insight into dependent origination and non self, the same exercises can be understood very differently. They become methods for refining the mind while simultaneously observing that every experience, every mental image, every sensation and every apparent faculty arises due to conditions and passes away according to conditions. There is no permanent owner behind the process, only an unfolding stream of conditioned phenomena.

    This transformation cannot be achieved intellectually. It emerges naturally through sustained meditation, deep concentration and careful observation. As wisdom matures, the motivation for practice changes. The practitioner no longer seeks mastery for the sake of the self, but uses every exercise as another opportunity to deepen clarity, reduce attachment and understand the nature of mind.

    In that sense, Bardon’s methods can certainly become part of a path of liberation. Their value depends not only on the exercises themselves, but on the understanding from which they are practised. Technique without wisdom easily becomes another form of attachment. Technique guided by direct insight becomes a vehicle for the gradual unfolding of wisdom itself.

    PAA: Can someone develop genuine magical abilities while remaining trapped in wrong view? What distinguishes technical magical attainment from actual liberation?

    Yes. A person can develop genuine magical abilities while remaining entirely within wrong view. Throughout history, many traditions have acknowledged that extraordinary abilities can arise through concentration, discipline and prolonged practice. These attainments, however, should never be confused with wisdom or liberation.

    From the perspective of the contemplative traditions, magical powers are ultimately neutral. They say nothing about the practitioner’s freedom from greed, hatred and delusion. A person may possess remarkable abilities while still identifying with the illusion of a separate self, still driven by craving, attachment and subtle forms of becoming. In that sense, magical attainments are not evidence of enlightenment.

    In fact, they can become one of the greatest obstacles on the path. Extraordinary experiences easily become objects of fascination. The practitioner begins to identify with being a magician, an adept or someone possessing secret knowledge. Recognition, power and spiritual identity become new forms of craving, while attachment to experiences and abilities strengthens the very patterns that the path is intended to dissolve.

    Actual liberation is something entirely different. It is not measured by what a person can do, but by what has ceased. Craving weakens. Clinging falls away. Delusion is replaced by direct knowledge of the conditioned nature of experience. Through insight into dependent origination and non self, the practitioner no longer builds identity around experiences, attainments or abilities. Freedom arises because there is no longer anything to defend, accumulate or become.

    This is why the great wisdom traditions consistently place wisdom above powers. Magical abilities may appear or they may not. They are secondary. Liberation is the ending of ignorance. Without that transformation, even the highest technical attainments remain conditioned phenomena, impressive perhaps, but still unfolding within the cycle of craving, clinging and delusion.

    Jhāna, the Formless States and Cessation

    PAA: You recommend the four Brahmavihāras as a route through what you call the awareness Jhānas, the four formless states and eventually cessation. How does this progression unfold in actual practice?

    The Brahmavihāras are not simply emotional qualities to be cultivated. They become the vehicle through which consciousness gradually releases its habitual identification with the personality and the sensory world. Loving kindness, compassion, appreciative joy and equanimity progressively refine the mind until it naturally enters the Jhānas. These absorptions are not achievements to be collected but doorways into increasingly profound understanding. Each Jhāna represents another stage of letting go, another layer of craving, grasping and identification falling away.

    As the practitioner becomes established in the fourth Jhāna, the transition into the formless realms unfolds naturally. The fifth Jhāna, the sphere of infinite space, marks a profound shift in perception. Awareness is no longer experienced as confined to the physical body, and what many traditions describe as interdimensional travel becomes a spontaneous capacity rather than a technique to be forced. One begins to understand directly that consciousness is not limited by ordinary concepts of space.

    The subsequent formless attainments continue this process of release. Infinite consciousness reveals awareness itself as the object of experience. The sphere of nothingness represents an even deeper letting go, where the structures that ordinarily define experience begin to disappear. From my own perspective, this is the first stage at which one genuinely steps outside what could be called the matrix of conditioned perception. Reality is no longer filtered primarily through the habitual construction of the personal self.

    The final formless attainment, neither perception nor non perception, refines consciousness to such an extraordinary degree that it approaches the threshold where all conditioned experience temporarily ceases. When cessation occurs, the entire process of perception, feeling and mental activity comes to complete rest. Emerging from this experience, dependent origination is no longer merely a philosophical teaching. It has been directly observed. One sees how experience arises conditionally, moment by moment, and how the illusion of a permanent, independent self is constructed.

    With that insight comes a relief unlike anything previously experienced. It is not emotional excitement or mystical ecstasy, but the profound peace that arises when the burden of constantly constructing and defending a separate identity momentarily falls away. This is why the Jhānas are so important. Their true purpose is not the cultivation of extraordinary experiences or psychic abilities, although such phenomena may arise naturally. Their purpose is wisdom. They provide the conditions under which direct insight into dependent origination, non self and ultimately liberation can unfold. Without that wisdom, even the highest meditative attainments remain refined states of conditioned existence rather than the completion of the path.

    If one’s goal is the practical application of sacred letters or advanced yogic and magical work, then the absorption Jhānas become indispensable because they provide the complete one pointedness through which such operations become possible.

    Erwin Pitsch

    PAA: You distinguish the four absorption Jhānas from the awareness Jhānas and suggest that the absorption states may be less necessary than the formless states and cessation. What is the experiential difference between these forms of Jhāna, and why do you give greater importance to the latter progression?

    The distinction I make is primarily one of purpose rather than quality. The absorption Jhānas and the awareness Jhānas are both profound states of meditation, but they lead towards different applications. The Buddha consistently presents the path to liberation beginning with the formula, “Quite secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, one enters and dwells in the first Jhāna…” This standard description appears throughout the Nikāyas, for example in Samaññaphala Sutta, Mahāsakuludāyi Sutta and many other discourses. The emphasis is on seclusion from the hindrances, not on entering an artificially induced state of complete absorption.

    From my perspective, the awareness Jhānas naturally mature into the four formless attainments, eventually leading towards cessation and direct insight into dependent origination. This is where the liberating wisdom described throughout the early Buddhist texts unfolds. The practitioner gradually relinquishes every level of attachment until the illusion of a permanent self is seen through directly. Liberation comes through wisdom arising from these experiences, not merely through entering increasingly refined states of concentration.

    The absorption Jhānas, however, serve a different function. They correspond very closely to the classical yogic samādhis described by Patañjali in the Yoga Sutras. Here the mind becomes completely unified with a single object until subject and object temporarily disappear into complete concentration. This form of absorption is indispensable for many forms of advanced esoteric practice.

    When working with the sacred letters, for example, the practitioner must eventually become the letter itself. The letter is no longer imagined or visualised but directly experienced as living consciousness. This complete identification allows the practitioner to access the full force of the letter and of combinations of letters within sacred formulae. It is from these states of total absorption that the extraordinary capacities described in many wisdom traditions begin to emerge.

    In my understanding, abilities such as profound healing, the full activation of sacred formulas, and the highest magical operations require this degree of complete absorption. The same applies to traditions that describe phenomena such as materialisation, teleportation or other extraordinary manifestations of consciousness. Whether one accepts every traditional description literally or symbolically, the underlying principle remains the same. These capacities arise only when consciousness becomes completely unified with its object.

    For this reason, I see the two developments as complementary rather than contradictory. If one’s goal is liberation, the awareness Jhānas, the formless attainments and cessation occupy the central place because they culminate in wisdom and freedom from suffering. If one’s goal is the practical application of sacred letters or advanced yogic and magical work, then the absorption Jhānas become indispensable because they provide the complete one pointedness through which such operations become possible.

    PAA: You describe cessation as the mind shutting down and rebooting, after which it becomes apparent that there is no self, only impersonal processes. How can cessation be distinguished from unconsciousness, blankness, dissociation or a break in memory, and at what point does the insight into non-self arise?

    Cessation is fundamentally different from unconsciousness, sleep, fainting, dissociation or simply losing awareness. In all of those conditions, ignorance remains intact. Consciousness may be absent or impaired, but there is no profound transformation in understanding when one returns. One simply resumes the ordinary perception of being a separate individual.

    Cessation, as described in the early Buddhist tradition, is something entirely different. It is the temporary cessation of perception and feeling, reached only after the practitioner has mastered the formless attainments. When the process comes to an end, the mind resumes functioning, but it does not resume in exactly the same way. It is as though the entire cognitive process has been reset. The conditioned machinery of perception begins operating again, yet something fundamental has changed in how experience is understood.

    The insight into non self does not occur during cessation itself, because there is no perception, feeling or mental activity present. It arises immediately upon emerging. At that moment, one directly observes dependent origination in operation. Instead of experiencing an independent observer standing behind experience, one sees only impersonal processes arising and ceasing according to conditions. Thoughts arise because of conditions. Feelings arise because of conditions. Perceptions arise because of conditions. Nowhere within this unfolding can a permanent owner, controller or separate self be found.

    This is why the experience cannot be confused with a blank gap in memory. A lapse in consciousness tells you nothing. Emerging from cessation fundamentally alters your understanding of reality. The relief that follows is unlike any ordinary pleasant experience. It is the direct recognition that the burden of maintaining the illusion of a separate self has, even if only temporarily, disappeared.

    From my perspective, even a brief direct experience of Nibbāna changes the practitioner forever. The early Buddhist texts associate the complete and irreversible realization of Nibbāna with arahantship, where all fetters have been abandoned. I would therefore distinguish between a temporary glimpse that profoundly transforms one’s understanding and the complete fulfilment of the path in which liberation has become irreversible.

    Nibbāna should never be understood as annihilation, unconsciousness or non-existence. The Buddha consistently rejected both eternalism and annihilationism. It is neither the continuation of an individual self nor the destruction of an existing self. Likewise, the highest formless attainment, the sphere of neither perception nor non perception, should not be confused with a state of non-existence. It is an extraordinarily refined conditioned state that precedes cessation. Nibbāna itself lies beyond all conditioned experience and therefore cannot be adequately described through the ordinary categories of existence or non-existence, being or non being. It is known only through direct realization, and its hallmark is the complete ending of greed, hatred and delusion rather than the disappearance of consciousness in the ordinary sense.

    Life continues, yet it is no longer carried by the same heavy fiction of ownership. That is the beginning of real freedom.

    Erwin Pitsch

    PAA: You have said that the Jhānas and cessation completely transformed your personality and character. What concrete and lasting changes occurred that had not resulted from your earlier decades of Hermetic, yogic and meditative practice?

    The change was not simply that I became calmer, more disciplined or more spiritually informed. Those qualities can develop through many systems. Hermetic training, yoga, mantra, concentration, ritual, energy work and decades of meditation can certainly refine the personality. They can create willpower, endurance, sensitivity, intuition and even extraordinary experiences. But they do not necessarily uproot the basic illusion that there is a separate self at the centre of experience.

    This was the decisive difference. Earlier practice had developed capacities. The Jhānas and the movement towards cessation revealed the mechanism of identity itself. One can spend decades strengthening the mind, purifying the emotions, opening subtle perception, working with symbols, letters, energies and higher states, and still remain centred in the hidden assumption, “I am the one who is doing this.” That assumption may become more refined, more spiritual, more luminous, but it is still the false centre.

    After deep Jhānic practice and the direct taste of cessation, the personality is no longer believed in the same way. Thoughts still arise, emotions still arise, habits still appear, but they are seen as conditioned processes rather than as “me” or “mine.” This is not a philosophical conclusion. It is a perceptual shift. The mind begins to see itself as weather rather than as owner of the sky. Anger, fear, ambition, pride, hurt and desire lose much of their solidity because they are no longer automatically woven into identity.

    The concrete changes were very simple and very profound. Reactions became shorter. Emotional storms could no longer justify themselves for days or weeks. The need to defend a fixed image of myself weakened. Praise and blame lost much of their intoxicating power. Craving became easier to recognize at the point where it begins, not only after it has already taken possession of the mind. Fear of losing status, recognition or control became less convincing. Compassion became less sentimental and more natural because other beings were no longer perceived as entirely separate islands of existence.

    This is what Nibbāna truly means in practice. It is not a mystical decoration added to the personality. It is not a trance, not a vision, not a magical power, not a heavenly realm and not a state of unconscious nothingness. Nibbāna is the ending of greed, hatred and delusion. It is the extinguishing of the fire that constantly fabricates suffering through craving and identification. Even a momentary contact with this dimension shows that liberation is not the improvement of the self, but freedom from the false perception that such a self exists independently in the first place.

    This is why I make a clear distinction between magical attainment and liberation. Magic exists in many traditions. Tibetan Buddhism contains highly developed teachings on siddhis, subtle body practices, dream yoga, deity yoga, mantra, tummo and visionary realms. Theravāda texts also speak of psychic powers, recollection of past lives, the divine eye, the divine ear and other extraordinary capacities that may arise through concentration. Chan and Zen literature contains accounts of unusual powers and signs, even if the mature teachers usually warn against becoming fascinated by them.

    So, the presence of magic does not prove liberation. A person may develop real abilities and still remain bound by craving, pride, fear, ambition and self-view. In fact, powers can become one of the most dangerous obstacles because they give the false self a spiritual kingdom to rule. The practitioner begins to think, “I can see, I can heal, I can travel, I can command, I can manifest.” The prison has become golden, but it is still a prison.

    Liberation is an entirely different venture. It is not about gaining more control over reality. It is about seeing that the controller was never what it appeared to be. It is not about becoming a powerful spiritual personality. It is about the collapse of the delusion that personality is the final truth of being. It is not about entering higher realms, but about understanding the conditioned nature of all realms. It is not about commanding the forces of nature, but about ending ignorance, craving and clinging.

    This is why the Jhānas and cessation transformed me in a way that earlier practice had not. Earlier systems had opened doors. They had given me tools, maps, disciplines and experiences. But the direct insight into non self-cut into the root. It revealed that the deepest suffering is not caused by the world alone, but by the mind’s constant appropriation of experience. “This is me. This is mine. This is what I am.” When that structure is seen directly, even briefly, a great burden falls away.

    After that, spiritual practice can no longer be understood as self enhancement. One may still practice letters, formulas, meditation, yoga, ritual or healing, but the orientation has changed. These things are no longer performed to glorify the practitioner. They become expressions of wisdom, service and alignment. Without liberation, magic easily becomes another extension of desire. With right view, even extraordinary capacities are understood as secondary, conditioned and ultimately empty.

    The most lasting change was therefore humility. Not the artificial humility of religious performance, but the humility that comes from seeing that the person one defended for a lifetime was only a process. There is still a human being, still a biography, still duties, relationships and work in the world. But the inner grip loosens. Life continues, yet it is no longer carried by the same heavy fiction of ownership. That is the beginning of real freedom.

    PAA: You have said that you practise within a very small group where arahants “walk in and out,” sometimes with fewer than five people and never more than twenty-five. How are such attainments recognized, and why do you believe a small group can preserve the path more effectively than a large temple?

    One of the defining characteristics of the early Buddhist tradition is that attainments are not publicly discussed or advertised. The Buddha repeatedly warned against conceit, attachment to spiritual identity and the subtle forms of craving that arise through recognition and status. A practitioner who genuinely understands the Dhamma has very little interest in announcing personal attainments. In healthy Buddhist communities, questions such as “Are you an arahant?” are generally considered inappropriate because they easily become nourishment for conceit rather than supports for liberation.

    Within the small group in which I practise in Australia, we meet regularly for meditation, Dhamma discussions and retreats. The atmosphere is deliberately simple. There is no hierarchy built around personalities, no emphasis on titles, and no encouragement to compare one practitioner’s progress with another’s. The focus always returns to the Buddha’s training: virtue (sīla), collectedness (samādhi) and wisdom (paññā), culminating in the ending of greed, hatred and delusion.

    For the advanced practitioner, however, certain things gradually become apparent without ever needing to be spoken. The development of deep Jhāna, the formless attainments and the direct knowledge arising from insight practice refine perception in ways that are difficult to describe. One becomes increasingly sensitive to the quality of another practitioner’s mind. This is not a matter of judging personalities or analysing behaviour. Rather, it concerns the absence or presence of grasping, conceit and identification. In the early discourses, the Buddha frequently points beyond external appearance to the underlying abandonment of the fetters (saṃyojana) and the destruction of the taints (āsava). Ultimately, liberation is measured by what has ceased, not by what has been acquired.

    For this reason, attainments are rarely discussed openly. They do not need to be. When practitioners have cultivated sufficient wisdom and concentration, much can simply be known from within. Even then, such understanding is treated with great caution and humility. It is never used as a basis for authority or superiority. The Dhamma repeatedly reminds us that conceit can survive even after coarse forms of attachment have weakened.

    The Buddha himself advised that the Dhamma and the Vinaya should remain the teacher after his passing. In Mahāparinibbāna Sutta he tells the monks that the teaching and discipline are to be their guide. This shifts attention away from charismatic individuals and back to direct practice and verification.

    The early texts also describe the qualities of a kalyāṇa mitta, a noble or admirable friend. In Upaddha Sutta, when the Venerable Ānanda suggests that admirable friendship is half of the holy life, the Buddha replies that it is not half but the whole of the holy life. The importance lies not in numbers but in practising alongside people whose lives genuinely embody the Noble Eightfold Path.

    A small group naturally supports this kind of environment. Everyone knows one another’s strengths and weaknesses. There is little opportunity to hide behind reputation or institutional status. Questions can be explored honestly, difficulties addressed directly and guidance given according to the needs of each practitioner. The emphasis remains on careful observation of dependent origination (paṭicca samuppāda), the cultivation of mindfulness (sati), collectedness (samādhi) and liberating wisdom (paññā).

    Large monasteries and temples have preserved the Dhamma for centuries and have made an immeasurable contribution to the survival of the Buddha’s teaching. They fulfil an indispensable role by maintaining the scriptures, the Vinaya and the monastic tradition. Yet any large institution also faces practical challenges. Administration, public teaching, financial responsibilities and organisational structures inevitably require attention. A small practice community can often devote a greater proportion of its energy to direct meditation, continuous dialogue and the day to day application of the Dhamma.

    Ultimately, liberation does not depend upon the size of the community but upon the sincerity of practice. Whether one practises alone, in a group of five or in a monastery of several hundred monks, the path remains the same. One abandons the five hindrances (nīvaraṇa), develops the seven factors of awakening (bojjhaṅga), cultivates the Noble Eightfold Path, and directly realizes the Four Noble Truths. Everything else is secondary. The true measure of a community is not its numbers, its buildings or its reputation, but whether it continues to produce practitioners in whom greed, hatred and delusion steadily come to an end.

    PAA: You have said that there is ultimately no need to explain the Dhamma and that even the teaching itself must eventually be relinquished. At what stage does the teaching change from a necessary guide into another object of attachment, and how can someone avoid abandoning it prematurely?

    The Dhamma is indispensable at the beginning of the path. Without right view (sammā diṭṭhi), one does not even know in which direction to practise. The Buddha repeatedly emphasized that right view is the forerunner of the Noble Eightfold Path. Before direct realization, the teachings function as a map. They point the practitioner towards ethical conduct (sīla), collectedness (samādhi) and wisdom (paññā). Without that guidance, the mind simply follows its habitual tendencies and mistakes conditioned experience for liberation.

    However, the map is not the destination. The purpose of the Dhamma is not to produce scholars or philosophers but to lead directly to the ending of suffering. Throughout the Nikāyas, the Buddha encourages personal verification. “Come and see” (ehipassiko) is one of the defining qualities of the Dhamma. It is to be realized here and now (sanditthiko), experienced directly by the wise for themselves (paccattaṃ veditabbo viññūhi). The teachings are therefore provisional in the highest sense. They point towards reality but are never identical with reality itself.

    This becomes completely clear at the stage of cessation. When perception and feeling cease and the practitioner subsequently emerges, dependent origination (paṭicca samuppāda) is no longer an intellectual doctrine. It is directly seen. The Four Noble Truths are no longer concepts to be contemplated. They become immediate experience. At that point, one does not merely understand the Dhamma. One sees the Dhamma itself operating as the very fabric of conditioned existence.

    It is here that the relationship to the teaching fundamentally changes. Before realization, one studies the Dhamma. After direct realization, the Dhamma becomes visible. One sees that every thought, every feeling, every perception and every act of consciousness arises according to conditions and passes away according to conditions. The teaching is no longer something external that must be remembered. It has become the direct lens through which reality is perceived.

    This is the point at which even attachment to the teaching must eventually be relinquished. The Buddha expressed this beautifully in the famous simile of the raft in Alagaddūpama Sutta. A person uses a raft to cross a dangerous river. Having reached the far shore, he does not continue carrying the raft on his head out of gratitude. He leaves it behind because it has fulfilled its purpose. The Buddha concludes that even the Dhamma should be understood in this way, let alone things contrary to the Dhamma.

    This does not mean abandoning the teachings prematurely. That is a mistake made by many practitioners. Some hear that “there is nothing to attain” or “all teachings must be let go” and use these ideas to justify avoiding discipline, meditation or investigation. This simply becomes another manifestation of delusion. One cannot discard a raft before crossing the river.

    The Dhamma ceases to function as an external guide only when it has become direct knowledge. Until then, study, reflection, meditation and continual application remain essential. The practitioner must cultivate mindfulness (sati), clear comprehension (sampajañña), the seven factors of awakening (bojjhaṅga), the Jhānas and insight into impermanence (anicca), unsatisfactoriness (dukkha) and non self (anattā). Only when these truths are directly realized does the need to conceptually hold onto the teaching naturally fall away.

    Paradoxically, those who have truly realized the Dhamma usually become its greatest custodians. They no longer cling to words, doctrines or philosophical positions, yet they continue to teach because compassion (karuṇā) naturally expresses itself. The teaching is no longer defended as an ideology. It is simply offered as a skilful means (upāya) for those who have not yet crossed the river.

    Ultimately, the Dhamma is neither a belief system nor a collection of ideas. It is the direct realization of the way things are. When that realization becomes complete, there is nothing left to defend, nothing left to believe and nothing left to abandon. The raft has served its purpose, and the practitioner stands on the further shore.

    Unlocking the Letters

    PAA: You recently described a friend as beginning to “unlock the letters,” after which manifestation, intuition, astral travel and other abilities began arising naturally. What does it actually mean to unlock a letter, and what changes demonstrate that this has occurred?

    To understand what it means to unlock a letter, one must first move beyond the ordinary idea of language. In the Western Hermetic tradition, as well as in several ancient mystical systems, the sacred letters are not merely symbols or sounds. They are understood as fundamental principles of creation itself, the building blocks through which consciousness expresses and organizes reality. Every letter represents a universal principle, a particular quality of consciousness and a specific mode through which experience can arise.

    Initially, a practitioner studies the letters intellectually. One learns their qualities, meditations and applications. This is useful, but it remains conceptual. At a deeper stage of practice, particularly when concentration becomes established through the Jhānas, the relationship changes completely. The practitioner no longer visualizes or imagines the letter. Instead, consciousness begins to resonate directly with the principle that the letter represents. The distinction between observer and symbol gradually disappears.

    This is what I mean by unlocking a letter. It is not that the letter suddenly acquires power. Rather, the practitioner removes the inner obstructions that previously prevented direct participation in that aspect of consciousness. The potential was always present, but it remained dormant.

    A useful analogy is the awakening of kuṇḍalinī. Traditional yoga describes dormant channels (nāḍīs) gradually becoming purified and opened. As this process unfolds, energy begins flowing naturally where previously there had been resistance. Likewise, some esoteric traditions describe the unfolding of the petals of the chakras, each opening revealing capacities that were already inherent but inaccessible. Nothing new is added. Something that was latent becomes functional.

    The same principle applies to the sacred letters. Each unlocked letter opens another dimension of consciousness. The practitioner does not force new abilities into existence. Instead, previously hidden capacities emerge spontaneously because the corresponding principle has become directly accessible.

    One of the first changes is often a profound increase in intuitive knowing. Decisions arise with remarkable clarity, not through analytical reasoning but through immediate recognition. Synchronistic events become more frequent, and manifestation appears less like an act of personal will and more like alignment with lawful processes already operating within reality.

    As practice deepens, other capacities may arise naturally. Perception during meditation becomes increasingly refined. Dreams become exceptionally clear and meaningful. The transition into lucid dreaming or conscious experiences beyond the ordinary sensory framework may occur without deliberate effort. What many traditions describe as astral projection or subtle body exploration becomes progressively more accessible, not because it is being forced through technique, but because consciousness has become sufficiently liberated from exclusive identification with the physical body.

    The same applies to healing, creativity and the application of sacred formulas. The practitioner discovers that the letters no longer feel like external tools but living realities that operate from within consciousness itself. Their effects become effortless because they are no longer being imposed by the personality. They unfold according to natural law.

    This effortless quality is perhaps the clearest indication that a letter has genuinely been unlocked. Before that point, progress depends largely upon discipline, repetition and sustained concentration. Afterwards, the principle begins expressing itself spontaneously in everyday life. Just as a musician eventually stops thinking about individual notes and simply hears the music, the practitioner no longer consciously “uses” the letter. The letter has become an integrated aspect of consciousness.

    This is also why inner purification remains indispensable. Attempting to unlock the letters while the mind is still dominated by craving, aversion and self-identification easily turns the practice into another expression of ego. The letters are not mechanical forces that can simply be manipulated. They become fully available only as consciousness itself becomes purified.

    Ultimately, unlocking a letter is less about acquiring extraordinary abilities than about recovering dimensions of consciousness that have always existed. The abilities are secondary. They emerge as natural consequences of an increasingly unobstructed mind. In the same way that the Buddha describes wisdom, compassion and equanimity as natural expressions of liberation, many esoteric traditions understand the awakening of the letters as the gradual unveiling of capacities that have always belonged to consciousness itself, waiting only for the conditions that allow them to manifest.

    PAA: Why should magical abilities begin appearing by themselves through the inner work of the letters? What connects letter practice and inner transformation with the spontaneous emergence of these faculties?

    The fundamental assumption behind this approach is that extraordinary abilities are not artificial acquisitions but natural capacities of consciousness itself. This idea is not unique to one tradition. Variations of it appear throughout the ancient wisdom traditions. The Upanishads describe the realization of the Self as revealing capacities that were previously concealed by ignorance. The Yoga Sutras explain that the siddhis arise through deep concentration and transformation of consciousness. The early Buddhist discourses describe the abhiññās, the higher knowledges, as natural developments following profound cultivation of samādhi, while consistently warning that they are secondary to liberation. Across these traditions, the underlying principle remains remarkably consistent. The powers are not regarded as something imported into consciousness. They are understood as capacities that become accessible when the obscurations covering the mind are removed.

    From this perspective, the inner work with the letters is not primarily a method of manufacturing abilities. It is a process of transforming consciousness itself. The sacred letters represent fundamental principles of reality. As the practitioner gradually embodies these principles rather than merely contemplating them intellectually, the structures of the conditioned personality begin to loosen. The false assumption of an isolated, independent self gradually weakens, and consciousness functions with increasing freedom.

    This is where I would respectfully differ from many interpretations of the Hermetic tradition, particularly the way the work of Franz Bardon is often understood in practice. Many students conclude that magical development is essentially the accumulation of techniques. They spend thousands of hours attempting to perfect visualizations, elemental exercises, rituals and countless technical practices, believing that enough repetition will eventually manufacture magical abilities. The practitioner gradually builds what could be called a highly refined magical personality, yet the underlying structure of self-identification frequently remains intact.

    In my experience, this is one of the great misunderstandings of the path. Training certainly has its place. Discipline, concentration and systematic practice are indispensable. However, they do not create the deepest capacities of consciousness. Rather, they prepare the conditions in which those capacities can reveal themselves.

    The decisive factor is understanding. As right view (sammā diṭṭhi) matures, dependent origination (paṭicca samuppāda) is increasingly understood, and the illusion of a permanent self (anattā) is directly experienced, the barriers that previously constrained consciousness begin to dissolve. What appeared extraordinary from the perspective of ordinary perception gradually becomes natural because the mind is no longer functioning through the same limitations.

    This is precisely why the higher knowledges described in the Buddhist texts are called abhiññā, higher knowledge, rather than supernatural powers. They arise from a different mode of knowing. Likewise, the siddhis of the yogic tradition are described as by-products of realization rather than the goal of practice. The traditions repeatedly caution practitioners not to become attached to these phenomena, because fascination with powers easily strengthens the very self-view that liberation seeks to dissolve.

    The work with the letters follows the same principle. As each letter is genuinely unlocked, another aspect of consciousness becomes available. The practitioner discovers that intuition becomes clearer without trying to be intuitive. Healing becomes more effective without striving to heal. Manifestation becomes more effortless because it no longer originates from personal craving but from increasing harmony with universal principles. Experiences beyond ordinary sensory perception arise without being forced because consciousness has become less identified with the physical body alone.

    The paradox is that these faculties become more accessible precisely when they cease to be the primary motivation for practice. As long as one practises in order to gain power, recognition or extraordinary experiences, craving continues to reinforce the illusion of a separate self. As that illusion weakens through wisdom, ethical conduct, deep meditation and the inner realization of the letters, the natural capacities of consciousness emerge of their own accord.

    For this reason, I no longer see magical development as the construction of something new. I see it as the gradual unveiling of what consciousness has always been capable of. Practice removes the obscurations. Wisdom dismantles the false centre. The letters reveal the architecture of reality. What then emerges is not the achievement of a powerful individual, but the natural functioning of consciousness when it is no longer constrained by ignorance, craving and identification.

    PAA: How can a practitioner test such abilities and distinguish genuine development from expectation, imagination, coincidence, selective memory or spiritual inflation?

    This question assumes that genuine abilities require continual verification through external tests. While there is certainly value in remaining honest and avoiding self-deception, I have found that truly authentic developments rarely create the need for constant testing. When a faculty genuinely awakens, there is a clarity that accompanies it. It is not based on excitement, belief or hope. There is simply a knowing present within the mind itself.

    The problem is that expectation, imagination, selective memory and spiritual inflation all arise from the same source, namely the false sense of self. The personality wants to become special. It wants confirmation that it is progressing, that it possesses something others do not, or that it has become spiritually advanced. This desire subtly colours perception until almost any unusual coincidence or vivid inner experience is interpreted as evidence of attainment.

    This is precisely why the Buddha placed such emphasis on right view (sammā diṭṭhi) as the foundation of the Noble Eightfold Path. Without right view, even sincere practitioners can spend decades strengthening a more sophisticated version of the very illusion they intended to transcend. Wrong effort can reinforce craving. Wrong concentration can reinforce identification. Wrong interpretation can transform ordinary psychological experiences into imagined spiritual achievements.

    The gradual dismantling of the false self is therefore the real safeguard against delusion. As understanding of dependent origination (paṭicca samuppāda) deepens and insight into non self (anattā) matures, the psychological need to prove one’s attainments steadily diminishes. The practitioner becomes less interested in possessing powers and more interested in understanding reality as it actually is.

    In my experience, this is also why authentic abilities appear with remarkable simplicity. They do not announce themselves with emotional excitement or dramatic certainty. They simply function. There is no internal need to persuade oneself or others that something extraordinary has happened. The experience carries its own unmistakable clarity.

    By contrast, imagination usually requires continual reinforcement. Spiritual inflation seeks recognition. Expectation constantly searches for confirmation. Coincidences are assembled into elaborate narratives because the personality wishes to feel chosen or exceptional. Genuine development does not depend upon such psychological mechanisms. In fact, it tends to dissolve them.

    This is one of the great dangers within many esoteric traditions. Practitioners may spend years attempting to cultivate extraordinary abilities while the hidden motivation remains personal achievement. Eventually the old personality is replaced by what appears to be a spiritual personality. The language changes, the symbols change and the practices become more sophisticated, but the underlying identification remains intact. The ego has simply put on sacred robes.

    This is why I believe right view, right effort (sammā vāyāma), right mindfulness (sammā sati) and right collectedness (sammā samādhi) cannot be separated. They protect one another. Concentration without wisdom can become fascination. Wisdom without ethical conduct remains intellectual. Practice without insight easily becomes self-improvement rather than liberation.

    Ironically, the less concerned a practitioner becomes with proving abilities, the more reliable any genuine capacities become. The attention shifts away from phenomena and towards the ending of greed, hatred and delusion. If unusual abilities arise, they are understood as conditioned phenomena rather than as evidence of personal greatness. If they do not arise, nothing essential has been lost, because the purpose of the path has never been to become extraordinary.

    Ultimately, the greatest test is not whether one can demonstrate unusual faculties. It is whether craving has diminished, whether reactivity has weakened, whether compassion has deepened and whether the illusion of a separate self continues to dissolve. The Buddha consistently measured progress by the abandonment of the fetters, not by the acquisition of powers. In that sense, liberation itself remains the only attainment that truly matters. Everything else, however remarkable it may appear, is secondary.

    PAA: You have mentioned that a small group may form around Kerning practice. What preparation would be expected of its members, and how would the letter work be integrated with meditation, ethical development, right view and the wider path of liberation?

    Since our last interview, my perspective has changed considerably. At that time, I believed there might be value in forming a small practice group centred around the Kerning letters. Since then, I have consciously departed from a particular Pansophical Kerning group with which I had previously been associated. That decision was not only based on personal disagreement but on what I came to recognize as a fundamental misunderstanding of the path itself within that group..

    The greatest obstacle was not the letter practice. The letters themselves remain one of the most profound systems of inner transformation I have encountered. The obstacle was the framework through which they were being understood. It became increasingly apparent that some of the leading practitioners had become identified with spiritual status, esoteric knowledge and personal authority. Instead of dismantling the false self, the practice had gradually constructed a more refined spiritual identity around it.

    From a Buddhist perspective, this is entirely understandable. Without right view (sammā diṭṭhi), even genuine practices can become incorporated into craving (taṇhā), clinging (upādāna) and conceit (māna). The practitioner may accumulate decades of experience, profound technical knowledge and impressive abilities, while the underlying process of identification remains fundamentally unchanged. The old ego simply becomes a spiritual ego.

    This realization also changed my understanding of groups themselves. Every long-standing spiritual group gradually develops what many Western esoteric traditions describe as an egregore, a collective psychological and energetic structure. Such structures are not necessarily harmful. They can provide stability, encouragement and continuity. Yet they also carry considerable danger. Once collective identity becomes stronger than direct investigation, belief begins replacing observation. Loyalty begins replacing inquiry. Consensus begins replacing direct realization.

    The Buddha repeatedly encouraged practitioners to verify the Dhamma through direct experience rather than through tradition, reputation or the authority of teachers. The path is described as ehipassiko, “come and see,” inviting direct verification rather than belief. Even the highest teachings ultimately have to be realized individually. No group, however sincere, can meditate on another person’s behalf or experience liberation for them.

    For this reason, I no longer see any need to establish another Kerning group or to become part of one. Having completed my own work with the letters, I see their purpose differently than I did before. They are not the centre of the path. They are one expression of a much larger transformation of consciousness.

    If someone wishes to practise the letters, I would still recommend exactly the same foundations I now consider indispensable. Ethical conduct (sīla) must come first. Without moral discipline, concentration becomes unstable and wisdom becomes distorted. This should be followed by guarding the sense doors (indriya saṃvara), continuous mindfulness (sati), cultivation of the Brahmavihāras, development of the Jhānas, the formless attainments, and insight into dependent origination (paṭicca samuppāda) and non self (anattā). Only within this framework does the work with the letters become truly transformative.

    The letters themselves then cease to be techniques for acquiring power. They become direct expressions of wisdom. Each letter reveals another aspect of consciousness precisely because the mind has become sufficiently purified to recognize it. There is no need for elaborate organizational structures, initiatory hierarchies or exclusive memberships. The practice unfolds through one’s own direct realization.

    Ironically, I have come to appreciate the Buddha’s approach far more deeply than I did years ago. He founded the Sangha as a support for practice, not as an institution built around personalities or esoteric status. The true refuge is not found in belonging to a particular school or lineage. It is found in the continual cultivation of wisdom, ethical conduct and meditation.

    Ultimately, every practitioner must walk alone. Teachers can point the way. Spiritual friends (kalyāṇa mittā) can encourage and correct us. Communities can provide support and inspiration. But the dismantling of ignorance takes place only within one’s own mind. No collective belief, no egregore and no organization can accomplish that work.

    For that reason, my focus today is no longer on creating groups or preserving organizations. It is on encouraging sincere practitioners to establish right view, cultivate the path laid down by the Buddha, and, where appropriate, integrate the work of the sacred letters into that wider framework of liberation. When the foundation is correct, everything else develops naturally. When the foundation is missing, even the most sophisticated esoteric system eventually becomes another form of attachment.

    PAA: In our first interview, you said that you were still waiting to study more material on Alois Mailänder. Has your understanding of his work developed since then, and how do you now understand the relationship between Mailänder, Kerning and the inner alchemy missing from Bardon?

    Since our first interview, my understanding of Alois Mailänder has become less concerned with collecting historical material and more focused on understanding the underlying principle of his approach. Rather than attempting to reconstruct his entire system, I have found it more valuable to examine the practical method that lies behind it and compare it with the direct experience gained through meditation and inner practice.

    Today I approach this work through the combined framework of Nada Yoga, the Royal Art of Johann Baptist Kerning and Theravāda Buddhism, while drawing supporting principles from Daoism, Rosicrucian teachings, Western alchemy and the Christian Orthodox tradition of theosis. These traditions appear very different on the surface, yet they all point toward the same fundamental process of inner transformation. Each contributes an important piece to understanding consciousness, purification and liberation.

    Mailänder’s system strikes me as remarkably simple, and that simplicity is one of its greatest strengths. Rather than constructing elaborate symbolic structures or complex magical hierarchies, it directs attention toward a practical inner process. In this respect, it shares something with Kerning’s work, where genuine understanding gradually unfolds through practice rather than intellectual speculation.

    For me, the relationship between Mailänder, Kerning and the inner alchemy absent from Franz Bardon’s published work lies precisely here. Bardon provides an excellent introduction to systematic mental training, elemental equilibrium and the development of magical faculties. What remains largely absent is the direct path toward liberation from the illusion of the separate self. Kerning, understood through the lens of Buddhist practice and inner alchemy, gradually opens that missing dimension. The letters become instruments not merely for acquiring abilities, but for transforming consciousness itself.

    Although I continue to study the available material on Mailänder, I also believe that many of those currently promoting his teachings have introduced significant methodological errors. In my view, these approaches often overlook the indispensable foundations of ethical development, right view, meditative purification and direct insight. Without these prerequisites, even a sound method can easily become another intellectual system or another form of spiritual identification. The value of Mailänder’s work, like Kerning’s, ultimately depends not on external interpretation but on the practitioner’s own transformation through disciplined practice.

    AAORRAC and the Smallest Effective Practice

    PAA: You have warned that the exercises in your AAORRAC book should be undertaken individually alongside the principal spiritual training rather than treated as a complete system in themselves. What was the main spiritual work that originally accompanied these exercises, and what function did the individual exercises serve within it?

    The exercises presented in my AAORRAC book developed through time and originated largely from the teachings of various Rosicrucian schools and esoteric orders of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries. They were developed by sincere practitioners who sought to preserve and transmit genuine spiritual knowledge. Nevertheless, I have come to the conclusion that many of these systems lacked a complete understanding of the deeper principles underlying inner transformation. In particular, they were generally unfamiliar with the sacred science of Nada Yoga, the advanced contemplative traditions of Tibetan Buddhism and Bön, the internal methods of Daoism, and the direct path described in the Theravāda suttas.

    As a result, the individual exercises often became isolated techniques, detached from the wider framework of ethical purification, right view, meditative development and liberation that gives them their true purpose. Practices such as concentration, visualization, projection, aura perception or symbolic ritual can certainly develop particular faculties of the mind, but when they are pursued independently, they do not necessarily lead to freedom from craving, clinging and the illusion of a separate self.

    This is why I have repeatedly emphasised that the AAORRAC exercises should never be regarded as a complete spiritual system. They are supplementary practices that can support certain aspects of development, but they must be integrated into a much deeper path of transformation. Without that foundation, they easily become ends in themselves, encouraging fascination with extraordinary experiences rather than genuine wisdom.

    Today, I would not recommend that someone spend decades studying the often fragmented and sometimes distorted teachings found in later Theosophical, Anthroposophical or Rosicrucian literature. We live in a time where the original sources are widely available. The writings of Paracelsus, the Vedas, the Upanishads, the Theravāda suttas and the Tibetan sutras have all been translated into accessible languages. Likewise, authentic teachers from these traditions travel throughout the world and make direct instruction available to sincere students. Teachers such as Jigme Losel Wangpo in the Dzogchen tradition or Shi De Yang of the Shaolin lineage provide opportunities to study living traditions rather than relying solely on secondary interpretations.

    For this reason, I regard the AAORRAC exercises primarily as historical and practical supplements rather than the core of one’s spiritual life. The central work should always be the transformation of consciousness itself through right view, ethical conduct, meditation and direct insight. When that foundation is firmly established, the individual exercises naturally find their proper place and function without becoming obstacles to the ultimate goal of liberation.

    PAA: You have explained that these exercises do not necessarily need to be developed in their fullest or most elaborate form. A practitioner may work with only the smallest effective aspect of an exercise, obtain an initial result and still activate further progress. What is the principle behind this, and how can someone identify the essential core of an exercise without reducing it to something superficial?

    The principle behind this is that genuine spiritual abilities are not produced by the exercises themselves. They arise naturally as understanding deepens and the mind is gradually transformed through direct spiritual practice. The exercises can help clarify certain principles, strengthen particular qualities of the mind or provide experiences that confirm one’s understanding, but they should never be mistaken for the path itself.

    Many practitioners assume that increasingly elaborate techniques will produce increasingly profound results. My own experience has been almost the opposite. Once the essential principle of an exercise has been understood and a first genuine result has been obtained, endlessly refining the technique often adds very little. At that point, further progress comes primarily through continuing one’s meditation, cultivating wisdom and deepening direct insight rather than repeating or embellishing the exercise.

    For this reason, I often encourage practitioners to discover the smallest effective aspect of an exercise. If that essential element is practised correctly and integrated into one’s daily spiritual development, it can be sufficient to unlock the understanding that the exercise was originally intended to convey. The purpose is not technical perfection but transformation of consciousness.

    Identifying this essential core requires discernment. It cannot be reduced to simply doing less or taking shortcuts. Rather, it means recognising which aspect of the exercise genuinely changes the mind and which parts are merely supporting structures that were added to assist the practitioner. This discernment develops through experience, not through intellectual analysis alone.

    Ultimately, the exercises in the AAORRAC tradition are best understood as signposts rather than destinations. They can deepen understanding, reveal certain principles and encourage further development, but the real work always remains the cultivation of right view, ethical conduct, meditation and direct insight. As these mature, many of the abilities sought through esoteric exercises emerge naturally as secondary consequences of inner transformation, rather than as goals pursued for their own sake.

    PAA: You suggest that someone might practise until experiencing healing, an out-of-body state or another initial result and then leave the exercise alone. Why is this limited activation sufficient? How does the faculty continue developing through the main spiritual work and eventually emerge by itself when the practitioner is ready, without repeatedly training the original exercise?

    The reason this limited activation is often sufficient is that these abilities are not the path itself. They are natural consequences of walking the path. Once an exercise has served its purpose by opening a particular faculty or demonstrating a principle through direct experience, repeatedly practising the same technique is often unnecessary. The practitioner’s time is better devoted to the principal work of ethical development, meditation, right view and the gradual transformation of consciousness.

    This becomes particularly clear when considering experiences such as interdimensional travel. Many esoteric traditions teach elaborate methods of psychic projection, yet my own experience is that this capacity develops far more naturally through profound meditative experience, especially the fifth and sixth jhānas, than through repeatedly attempting projection exercises. As perception becomes increasingly refined, consciousness is no longer confined to ordinary sensory experience. Entirely new modes of perception begin to unfold spontaneously.

    At that stage, the practitioner no longer attempts to force extraordinary experiences. Instead, perception itself changes. Access to other realms, dimensions and forms of nonphysical existence becomes a natural extension of consciousness rather than the product of a specific technique. What initially required effort gradually becomes effortless because the underlying conditions that make such experiences possible have been established through spiritual development.

    This is why I encourage practitioners not to become attached to extraordinary abilities. Once an exercise has produced its initial result, it has already fulfilled much of its purpose. Continuing to deepen meditation and wisdom allows the corresponding faculty to mature organically. The exercise merely opened the door. Walking the path enables the practitioner to move through it.

    I may eventually write a separate book devoted entirely to the art of interdimensional travel, as this subject deserves far more detailed treatment than can be given within the AAORRAC exercises. At present, however, I believe the material already presented is sufficient. The essential point is that these experiences cannot ultimately be manufactured through technique alone. As the practitioner’s perception gradually opens through genuine spiritual practice, these dimensions reveal themselves naturally, and exploration becomes an effortless consequence of inner transformation rather than an achievement to be pursued for its own sake.

    PAA: You connect the proper use of these exercises with inner transformation, seeing dependent origination, passing through the Jhānas and eventually experiencing liberation. Were these contemplative elements explicitly part of the historical AAORRAC training, or is this a synthesis that became clear through your later Buddhist, yogic and Kerning practice?

    No, these contemplative elements were not an explicit part of the historical AAORRAC training as I received and studied it. The Rosicrucian systems of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries contain many valuable practical exercises for concentration, visualization, symbolism and the cultivation of certain mental faculties, but they generally do not include a systematic path through the jhānas, nor do they present the Buddhist understanding of dependent origination and non self as the central framework of spiritual development.

    This realization fundamentally changed my own approach. After years of practice, and particularly after experiencing the full range of yogic absorptions, the various samādhis described within the yogic traditions, and the awareness jhānas taught within Theravāda Buddhism, it became increasingly clear to me that the Western esoteric path, while valuable, remains incomplete. It develops many capacities of the mind but does not fully explain the transformation of consciousness that leads beyond identification with the personality itself.

    The synthesis presented in my later work therefore arose from direct practice rather than from an attempt to combine traditions intellectually. As my understanding deepened through Theravāda Buddhism, Nada Yoga, Kerning, and other contemplative traditions, I began to recognize where the older Rosicrucian methods fit within a much larger framework. Many of the exercises retained their value, but their purpose became clearer when viewed as supporting practices rather than as the central path.

    For this reason, I now place meditation, right view, ethical development, the cultivation of the jhānas, and the direct understanding of dependent origination at the heart of spiritual training. Within that context, the traditional AAORRAC exercises become useful supplementary methods that may assist development, but they no longer occupy the central position they once held in Western esoteric schools. The inner transformation that culminates in liberation is, in my view, the missing element that those systems only partially understood.

    OARC, Secrecy and the Hidden Current

    PAA: In your OARC article, you describe the order as a transitional ancestor of the later AAORRAC current. Is this connection based on direct organisational succession, shared initiates, identifiable practices, surviving documents or a broader continuity within continental Rosicrucianism? What do you believe was actually transmitted?

    I have gradually come to regard questions of organisational succession as being of far less importance than they first appear. Within many esoteric orders, succession is often treated as a matter of historical legitimacy or institutional authority. In practice, however, these questions frequently become political rather than spiritual. Holding the office of Grand Master or belonging to a recognised lineage does not necessarily imply a profound understanding of the teachings themselves or the direct realization of what those teachings are intended to produce.

    My own experience has been that the practical exercises found within these traditions were not created by isolated organisations working independently. They were developed, refined and transmitted by individuals who themselves had studied across a remarkable range of traditions. Many practitioners belonged simultaneously or successively to several Rosicrucian, Hermetic and initiatic schools while also studying Eastern systems directly. Within a single lodge it was not unusual to encounter members who had received instruction from organisations such as the Society of the Inner Light, Builders of the Adytum, the Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn, Martinist organisations, AMORC, Saraswati Yoga lineages, Tibetan Buddhist teachers, Theravāda monks and Daoist masters. The knowledge each person carried reflected decades of study across multiple traditions rather than exclusive loyalty to one organisation.

    For this reason, I believe the real continuity is not primarily organisational but experiential. What was transmitted was less the formal succession of an order than an accumulated body of practical methods, contemplative insights and symbolic frameworks that individual practitioners carried with them throughout their lives. These were continually refined as new understanding emerged, and the resulting body of knowledge naturally found expression within whichever order or fraternity those individuals happened to belong to at the time.

    When I refer to OARC as a transitional ancestor of the later AAORRAC current, I therefore mean a broader continuity of ideas, practices and practitioners rather than claiming a simple institutional succession supported by an uninterrupted chain of documents or offices. The transmission occurred principally through experienced individuals who integrated material from many different schools and passed on what they had found to be genuinely effective.

    Ultimately, I believe that no single order possesses a monopoly on spiritual knowledge. Every authentic tradition has preserved part of the picture. The task of the modern practitioner is not to become bound to one organisation or its historical claims, but to understand the underlying principles that unite these traditions and verify them through direct experience.

    PAA: You describe secrecy as spiritual containment, but you have also pointed to the political persecution faced by practitioners such as Bardon. How much of Western esoteric secrecy arose because the practices required protection and containment, and how much developed because practitioners themselves faced genuine political and personal danger?

    For me, the deepest meaning of secrecy has never been the concealment of information from other people. The true secret is within. Interestingly, the German word Geheim can be understood as pointing toward what is inward and hidden, that which belongs to the inner home of consciousness. In that sense, the greatest mysteries cannot truly be written down or explained. They can only be realized through direct experience. This is reflected in the famous saying from the Dao De Jing: “The Dao that can be spoken is not the eternal Dao.” The essential knowledge is experiential rather than intellectual.

    From this perspective, much of the traditional secrecy surrounding Western esotericism served as a form of spiritual containment. Certain practices only become meaningful when the practitioner has developed the ethical foundation, mental stability and insight required to understand them correctly. Without those prerequisites, techniques are easily misunderstood, distorted or pursued for the wrong reasons. The secrecy was therefore intended not simply to hide knowledge but to preserve its proper context.

    At the same time, there have undoubtedly been historical periods in which esoteric practitioners faced genuine persecution because their ideas or activities conflicted with prevailing religious or political authorities. In such circumstances, discretion was also a practical necessity. Throughout European history, many esoteric groups adopted private methods of transmission partly to protect both their teachings and their members.

    For my own work, the primary reason for withholding certain subjects is not organisational secrecy but the recognition that some material cannot be adequately communicated outside the broader framework of inner development. There are areas of practice, such as my current reflections on interdimensional travel, portals or the symbolic use of mirrors, that I have deliberately chosen not to explore in detail in my published books. My view is that presenting such material without the necessary experiential foundation would invite misunderstanding and distract from the central work of spiritual transformation.

    Ultimately, I believe the greatest mystery has never been a hidden ritual or an unpublished manuscript. It is the transformation of consciousness itself. Once that transformation begins, many teachings that once appeared secret become self-evident through direct experience. The real esoteric tradition has always pointed inward, because that is where the deepest knowledge is discovered.

    PAA: The older orders selected very small numbers of people and often concealed an inner circle within a larger outer organisation. What qualities made someone suitable for the deeper work, and how could such secrecy avoid becoming a shield for false claims, unhealthy authority or abuse?

    My experience with inner orders, including circles such as the Chevaliers de la Rose Croix and Martinist groups, is that many members can belong to an organisation for decades without ever realizing that smaller circles exist in which the practical work described only theoretically in the monographs is actually undertaken. Membership, rank or years of service alone do not automatically provide access to these groups. The decisive factor has traditionally been the perceived readiness of the individual practitioner rather than formal advancement through an organisational hierarchy.

    From my perspective, the reason for maintaining such smaller circles was not primarily exclusivity but the practical requirements of advanced spiritual work. Practices intended to transform consciousness require an atmosphere of trust, discipline and inner stability. When working with profound contemplative states or other advanced practices, the quality of the participants and the environment become far more important than the number of people involved. A group composed of practitioners with shared commitment, ethical conduct and mental stability creates what I would describe as a pure vibrational field that supports deeper work and minimizes unnecessary distraction.

    At the same time, I also recognize the danger that secrecy can become a shield for exaggerated claims, unhealthy authority or abuse. Any system that relies solely on hidden knowledge or unquestioned hierarchy is vulnerable to these problems. For that reason, I believe the legitimacy of any inner circle should never rest on secrecy itself but on the observable character of its members, the ethical quality of their conduct and the genuine transformation evident in their lives. Authority should arise from wisdom, humility and direct experience rather than from titles, grades or claims of exclusive access.

    Ultimately, I have come to believe that the most important qualification for deeper work is not membership in a particular order but the cultivation of right view, ethical discipline and mature contemplative practice. Without those foundations, even the most carefully guarded teachings remain little more than interesting ideas. With them, the essential principles become accessible regardless of organisational affiliation. In that sense, the true inner circle is defined less by institutional boundaries than by the level of inner transformation shared by those who participate in the work.

    Completing the Path

    PAA: Bringing these elements together, how do you now understand the complete sequence of the path—from Bardonian training and the awakening of the letters through right view, the Brahmavihāras, Jhāna, the formless states, cessation, inner alchemy and liberation?

    When I first encountered Western esoteric training, I understood the path primarily as one of developing the mind, refining character and awakening latent human faculties. Franz Bardon’s system provided a clear and systematic introduction to concentration, elemental equilibrium, imagination and disciplined practice. The work with the letters later revealed another dimension, showing how consciousness itself could be refined through the direct experience of sound, vibration and inner perception. These stages were invaluable, but they eventually revealed themselves as preparatory rather than final.

    As my practice matured through the study of Theravāda Buddhism, it became clear that the true purpose of spiritual training is not the acquisition of extraordinary abilities but the complete ending of suffering. The path begins with right view, seeing that all conditioned phenomena arise and cease according to causes and conditions, without an enduring or independent self behind them. From this understanding arise right intention, ethical conduct and the gradual purification of the mind.

    The cultivation of the Brahmavihāras softens the heart, weakens ill will and prepares the mind for deep collectedness. As concentration matures, the jhānas arise naturally, bringing increasing tranquility, clarity and freedom from the hindrances. Beyond them, the formless attainments reveal progressively subtler dimensions of experience, culminating in the complete stilling of mental activity. Yet even these refined states are not the final goal. They remain conditioned phenomena, to be understood with wisdom rather than clung to.

    Through sustained mindfulness and direct insight, dependent origination becomes evident in immediate experience. Craving, clinging and becoming are seen as conditioned processes rather than personal possessions. As this understanding deepens, attachment to all conditioned experience gradually falls away. The mind inclines toward the signless, the deathless and finally toward the cessation of craving itself.

    From this perspective, what I once described as inner alchemy is nothing other than the complete transformation brought about by abandoning greed, hatred and delusion. It is not the construction of a higher self, nor the perfection of subtle bodies, but the ending of identification with all that is conditioned. The false sense of ownership dissolves, and with it the suffering that depends upon it.

    The various faculties that may emerge along the way, whether unusual perceptions, profound healing, or other extraordinary experiences, are secondary. They may arise as natural consequences of a purified and collected mind, but they are neither the measure of progress nor the purpose of the training. The noble path does not culminate in becoming an accomplished magician, mystic or occultist. It culminates in liberation.

    The goal, as it is understood in the Theravāda tradition, is Nibbāna: the complete cessation of greed, hatred and delusion, the ending of craving, the realization of the unconditioned, and the freedom that is no longer shaken by birth, ageing, sickness or death. This is the fulfilment of the path, and everything else, however fascinating or extraordinary, is meaningful only insofar as it supports that realization.

    PAA: What is the final result of this complete path? How would its completion be visible in the character, conduct and consciousness of a practitioner rather than merely through claims of extraordinary experience or magical ability?

    The final result of the path is not the accumulation of extraordinary experiences or the mastery of unusual abilities. It is the complete liberation of the mind from greed, hatred and delusion. Everything else is secondary. Psychic phenomena, healing abilities or other remarkable experiences may arise during practice, but they are neither the measure nor the completion of the path.

    In my experience, the completion of the path becomes evident primarily through the character of the practitioner. There is an unmistakable absence of craving, fear, pride and attachment. Their conduct is naturally ethical, compassionate and effortless, not because they are following rules but because the causes of unwholesome action have been abandoned. They no longer seek recognition, authority or spiritual status, and there is nothing left to defend as a personal identity.

    The greatest transformation is found in consciousness itself. The practitioner no longer experiences reality through the habitual framework of a separate self. Dependent origination is directly understood, and the illusion of ownership over thoughts, feelings and perceptions has dissolved. The peace that remains is not dependent upon external circumstances or altered states of consciousness. It is stable, unconditioned and free.

    It is surprisingly easy to recognize this when one has reached a similar depth of practice. Once a practitioner has themselves passed through the eight jhānas and directly experienced cessation, they possess a frame of reference that cannot be acquired intellectually. In the presence of someone who has genuinely completed the path, there is an immediate recognition. It is not based upon miracles, impressive teachings or claims of attainment. It is simply obvious and unmistakable, because the quality of mind expresses itself naturally in every aspect of that person’s presence, conduct and way of being.

    For this reason, I have become increasingly cautious of judging spiritual attainment by reports of visions, psychic powers or magical accomplishments. Such experiences may occur at many stages of development and, by themselves, prove very little. The true measure of the path is the ending of suffering, the abandonment of craving and the unshakable peace that manifests in everyday life. That is the hallmark of genuine liberation and the final fruit toward which the entire path is directed.

    PAA: Erwin, we would like to thank you for doing this second interview. I felt our discussions very much deserved a wider audience. Many thanks.


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    About the Author

    Perseus Arcane Academy
    Founder and Director · Perseus Arcane Academy

    James is the founder and director of Perseus Arcane Academy, an online school and publishing platform offering courses, interviews and educational resources on Franz Bardon, Hermeticism, meditation, internal arts, ceremonial magic and related esoteric traditions.

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  • Consciousness, Samkhya and the Evolution of the Soul: An Interview with Ivan Antic

    Consciousness, Samkhya and the Evolution of the Soul: An Interview with Ivan Antic

    Introduction

    In this wide-ranging interview, we speaks with author and long-term spiritual practitioner Ivan Antic about meditation, the Fourth Way, Shikantaza Zen, Samkhya, the nature of consciousness, the evolution of the soul, astrology, artificial intelligence and the relationship between ancient spiritual teachings and modern science. Ivan also reflects on the experiences that shaped his path and the central ideas explored throughout his books.

    Learn more through Ivan Antic’s official website and explore his complete book catalogue. Official website | Books


    Ivan Antic https://ivanantic.com/

    Personal Path & Training

    PAA: You describe yourself as “a modern monk to whom the whole world is a monastery.” After leaving the formal study of philosophy in Belgrade in 1982, what did those early years of independent practice actually look like day to day — and was there a moment of loneliness or doubt that almost pulled you back toward conventional life?

    Ivan Antic: From childhood, I was curious about everything, but in a measured way and without excess. I lived a well-ordered life in good circumstances. Fantasy and imagination dominated my childhood. At a very early age, around fourteen, I encountered the works of Hermann Hesse and Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan, Indian Philosophy, followed by the collected works of J. W. Goethe, C. G. Jung, Plato, and Plotinus. All of this had a hypnotic effect on me; it fulfilled my intuitive aspirations. It deepened my love of philosophy, but the true benefit of philosophical works lay, above all, in the fact that I developed a vocabulary and a cultivated way of thinking about the essential questions of human existence. The answers came later, but not from books.

    I had no teacher; I taught myself meditation, and soon afterward, in the work of Yasutani Hakuun roshi, I came across a description of that very same practice and recognized it as Zen meditation.

    That is why I consciously stopped exploring higher dimensions and devoted myself to their true realization: my being in the present moment.

    Ivan Antic

    PAA: The mystical experiences you had before the age of 21 were significant enough to make you walk away from academic philosophy entirely. Without that institutional scaffolding to help you interpret what was happening to you, how did you find your footing? Were there teachers, texts, or inner guides who met you in that space?

    Ivan Antic: The initial practice of meditation was enough not only to remove my doubts but also to make me even more open to the daily discovery of myself and the world around me. This openness also expanded into other dimensions —into astral experiences—first through lucid dreams and then through out-of-body experiences, both on the physical plane and in higher dimensions. I thoroughly studied all the details of higher dimensions. When I tried to acquire an academic education, it became clear that this was incompatible with my experience. I understood that academic education could only help me acquire a culture of thought and research, but not the answers themselves. I felt I would actually be prevented from receiving the answers because there were already too many of them—answers that were acceptable, not necessarily true.

    In this way, I understood that I could acquire a culture of thought on my own by reading all the literature already studied at the university. I did this in less time than formal studies would have required. Since I did not want to become a professor, which at that time was the only real possibility, I abandoned that path, and favorable life circumstances allowed me to go my own way. This acquaintance with higher dimensions lasted only about ten years. Because I had come to know them well, I gained the insight that I was at the same level of consciousness both in the body and outside it. Therefore, the real problem is the level of consciousness here and now, not departure to higher planes, however attractive they may be. All higher dimensions fulfill the purpose of their existence on the physical plane.

    That is why I consciously stopped exploring higher dimensions and devoted myself to their true realization: my being in the present moment. The key event was the one I described at the end of the book Awakening, in the final chapter (Epilogue): the encounter with an invisible entity that made it known to me that it was guiding me through life and that, in time, I would discover everything. I wrote down that message and set it aside because nothing similar ever happened again. In fact, I did not even like the idea that some voice was telling me so powerfully that it was directing my life. Most cases like that end up in psychiatric care. I am not fond of voices or channeling.

    I know very well that this is part of programming and mind control, and that there is technology capable of producing this. None of that applies to me, and this event was not of that kind. At the time, I did not know how to understand it except as the voice of the Self or the soul, the higher “I,” or the Entity spoken of by Jane Roberts’s Seth. I left it all aside and forgot about it until a few years ago, when I discovered the whole story behind everything. First, in Stewart Swerdlow’s book Blue Blood, True Blood (2002), in the chapter The Transparent People, I saw that he, too, had had a similar experience.

    He discovered that these beings were actually the consciousness behind matter and energy that governs everything, that they had come from the future, and that they had created all forms of life, both positive and negative beings, in the astral. All of this was done for the sake of our evolution. At that time, Stewart Swerdlow’s father was working at the Montauk base on secret U.S. military projects, and they received many important pieces of information from these “Transparent People.” A few years ago, I discovered the connection between my 1981 experience and the “Transparent People”: it was the consciousness of the same beings. After midnight on December 21, 2023, I was on the summit of the pyramidal mountain Rtanj (central Serbia) until three in the morning, when the Sun entered the zero degree of Capricorn.

    This mountain was artificially shaped into the regular form of a three-sided pyramid; no one knows when, but judging by the erosion, it was probably a hundred thousand years ago. At the summit, there is a narrow opening, like a small well, about one meter in diameter. It goes straight down for about 3 meters, then turns at a right angle toward the center of the summit, and after about ten meters descends about one kilometer, always with the same diameter. Nature could not have made it, and neither could humans. This opening is actually the place of the strongest non-Hertzian radiation on our planet. This has been measured with instruments. I discovered that this is the place where the Earth is charged with the energy of the cosmic aether, like the opening on a phone where it is charged.

    This is the purpose of all pyramids in the world. At the base of all pyramids, there is water for generating orgone energy (Wilhelm Reich). There is water at this place as well, an underground lake, and several springs. The time of the solstice is also non-Hertzian, that is, stationary, because the rotation of the Earth comes to a halt before moving in the other direction from December 25 onward, toward the renewed lengthening of daylight. I was born at that time, when the Sun was at 0 degrees and 7 minutes of Capricorn. For most of my life, I have practiced meditation, and I know that the state of samādhi is also a non-Hertzian state of being and mind. When I was up there, I managed to enter a brief meditation.

    When stationary time, space, and my being and consciousness joined into one non-Hertzian state, something happened within me, though in a hidden way (due to the physical effort of descending the mountain in winter conditions). It manifested only later, when I had come down and relaxed into the (again non-Hertzian) state of sleep. I saw my entire life in a single image, as in an NDE experience, and everything connected into a logical whole. Then I understood why I had been so strongly protected throughout my life. I believe my life was saved several times. One such time was when I (guided by an invisible hand) avoided going into the war zone during the 1991–1995 civil war in Yugoslavia, which was provoked from outside through media lies in the West to break apart a formerly successful state and make it easier to control.

    The place I was supposed to go had the greatest number of deaths. The beings that Swerdlow saw and that appeared to me in 1981 have a base beneath the Rtanj pyramid. Other extraterrestrial species are there as well. A brief overview of all these species can be found at the end of my book The Moon, in the chapter And Finally, Who Set the Moon Up for Us? Many people have encountered such beings; they appear suddenly beside them in human form, sometimes in a human-like form but bathed in beautifully colored light, and then disappear. What remains is a lasting inspiration about the miraculous—and the life events they created. Often, they act only through events, and people do not notice that these events are being directed by invisible beings.

    Many well-known creators had similar experiences (Goethe saw his double on horseback passing by him; Tesla communicated with them, etc.). I emphasize that my connection with them is not channeling. It is only help and support in personal maturation, which manifests in the writing of books. I wrote all the texts solely through inspiration, and I had miraculous support for their publication (synchronicities, events, people, etc.). All the shortcomings in the texts of my books are the result of my inexperience with writing and my desire to express transcendental experiences as directly as possible. Some of them I did not immediately understand myself, but discovered over time. That is why my books complement one another and, in some places, repeat one another. My final discovery is that these invisible beings are actually ourselves from the future.

    When human souls actualize divine consciousness and their full potential, they create a new cycle of life and the evolution of consciousness (they should properly be understood as the Entities described in Jane Roberts’s Seth material). We are in one such evolutionary cycle. This is so because the consciousness that creates everything is also one and the same. There is no duality; everything is advaita. Our essence, ātman, is brahman, the absolute. All of this was said long ago; it only takes time to understand it. I also want to emphasize that I do not deal with ufology. Those who deal with it are the ones who have not had a direct encounter with extraterrestrial beings. I have had four such encounters. Those who know the truth about them work on themselves and do not talk much.

    One more note in this regard: after I saw a UFO in the form of a sphere, with a pearly glow, over two kilometers in diameter, which had no propulsion but moved by controlling time and space, it became perfectly clear to me that if such superior beings are here—and they were here before us—they did not come to create problems or make mistakes. It is not possible to possess such technology, which operates in all dimensions, without the highest consciousness that encompasses all dimensions. And no one can interfere with them in carrying out their plans, and the evolution of human consciousness is one of those plans. Therefore, one could say, as in entertaining films, “Daddy is home.” There is no need to worry about the whole process because of global events.

    The only things that cause problems for us are the parts of the process that we do not understand because we do not see the whole—parts that appear negative to us but that are necessary for the final, positive goal to be achieved.

    PAA: You’ve practiced the Fourth Way and Shikantaza Zen meditation for over 40 years. These are quite different traditions — one demands ceaseless self-observation in the midst of ordinary life, the other asks for a radical “just sitting” without agenda. How do you hold both, and what does each give you that the other cannot?

    Ivan Antic: Each of these techniques complements the other. Both must be practiced without choice. Just as you cannot sit still in meditation only when you feel like it, but must do so with discipline every day, thereby transcending the constantly changing and conditioned moods of the mind and feelings, so too constant awareness in action, according to the Fourth Way, must not depend on choice and mood. Otherwise, we merely turn the whole practice into a ritual and lose its meaning. The practice of the Fourth Way helps us recognize, apply, and permanently preserve the transcendental consciousness attained in meditation throughout all possible activities, without choice.

    PAA: On your website, you describe watching your father — who was dying of bone cancer — leave his body during an out-of-body experience of your own, and being able to communicate with him and reassure him. How did that night change your understanding of death, and how has it shaped the compassion you bring to writing about the soul’s journey?

    Ivan Antic: This was only one of many experiences that convinced me that consciousness is primary, that it is independent of the body, and that our being is not only physical and mental but much greater—greater than we can understand. That is why we act in several dimensions simultaneously. The brain serves not only to receive consciousness from outside itself but also to narrow our consciousness to the smallest possible measure: the consciousness we have in the physical body. More than once, people have told me that I helped them, although I did nothing physical for them, nor do I know how.

    PAA: Your intellectual lineage draws on Samkhya, Patanjali’s Yoga Sutras, early Buddhism, and what you call the original teachings of Christ — traditions that are rarely held together. When these streams appear to contradict one another, how do you arbitrate between them? Is it lived experience that casts the deciding vote?

    Ivan Antic: Yes, experience is decisive in true spiritual development. The experience of one and the same consciousness that is at the foundation of everything, and that is our essence, connects all true spiritual teachings. Since I had transcendental experiences early on and became convinced that there is a consciousness far superior to the one I am personally aware of—the consciousness that is the source of illusions—I did not want to place too much trust in myself. That is why I sought signposts and confirmations of my experiences in objective, verified teachings from the most ancient times. Sāṃkhya is completely objective and free from all mental conditioning, imagination, beliefs, and rituals. It is the first and true spiritual science. Patañjali develops the principles of that science in practice, and the original teaching of the Buddha bears witness to the realization of awakening.

    PAA: You make a sharp distinction between mature and immature soul consciousness — and you’re frank that humanity is still early in that process. Speaking personally: where do you recognise your own remaining “immaturity,” and how do you work with it rather than around it?

    Ivan Antic: The distinction between immature and mature souls is a practical way to understand the evolution of consciousness and human understanding during incarnation. It explains the differences that exist innately among people, as well as the real reason why people behave the way they do when the cause cannot be found either in their past or in their environment. This distinction has been confirmed by the hypnotic regressions conducted by Dr. Michael Newton. Meher Baba also spoke of such evolution in God Speaks. This is also a practical way to recognize development and maturation within ourselves.

    PAA: You describe spontaneous soul-consciousness as something that can manifest with beautiful innocence but also with naivety and destructive consequences. Can you share an example from your own life where the soul’s pull toward the divine caused you to misread a situation in the world — and what you learned from it?

    Ivan Antic: The naive and spontaneous manifestation of the soul’s consciousness is the basis of everything childish. We see this in our experience, in the naive expectation that a divine parent will fulfill all our needs and help us. Humanity has the same expectation. This is what all orthodox religions teach: Orthodoxy, Judaism, Islam, and Hinduism. Such teachings are attractive because they provide security for young and immature souls, but development is possible only through creativity, risk-taking, learning from mistakes, and creating something new. The rigid traditions of orthodox teachings allow no changes. That is why there is no evolutionary manifestation of consciousness in them. People seek refuge in them because of fear and uncertainty.

    F. M. Dostoevsky described this problem in the chapter of The Brothers Karamazov titled “The Grand Inquisitor.” The mature manifestation of the human soul takes place through personal action, knowledge, and creative work. This is what secret societies and the Protestant faith, beginning with Calvin, teach, and these forces built modern civilization, above all in the West. Their shortcoming is that, in this striving, they placed too much emphasis on the division of labor and on the external cultivation of human beings through morality and dogma. This was indeed necessary in the beginning and worked effectively in building a work ethic and material culture, but it led to alienation from the values of the soul and, therefore, to great alienation among people. Today, people in the West are alienated and lonely to the greatest possible degree, and busy to the greatest possible degree.

    It is important to understand that these two forms of action are not in conflict and do not exclude one another. In their ideal form, they should complement one another. The division between the spiritual and the material is false. What we call matter does not exist as a thing; it is only the most concrete manifestation of spirit or consciousness. Material culture and scientific development find their true path only when they are supported by the soul’s consciousness. The consciousness of the soul manifests correctly on the physical plane only when it understands the natural laws that govern the physical world, and this is science. Civilization without the consciousness of the soul is tyranny, or a Roman Colosseum in which only the strongest survive. Unfortunately, such a balance has not yet been achieved. All large cities resemble the Roman Colosseum on a festival day.

    This is probably because there are still more immature souls who expect salvation from heaven, from God, than mature souls who want to fulfill divine consciousness through work, development, and maturity. Neither group understands the other. In history so far, only these two groups have waged war against one another, and this is the main reason all wars have begun. That is why today we see chaos unfolding in the world: the bearded orthodox Taliban of all religions (Orthodoxy, Islam, and Judaism) are pulling development backward into the ideology of the early Middle Ages, while the clean-shaven members of secret societies are pulling development forward into rule through advanced technology, even with the help of Satanism, blindly trampling all human values. Both want to achieve their goals by force of arms. Both advocate “true values.” A perfect combination for chaos.

    Normal people suffer as collateral damage in their mutual bombardment.

    In accordance with the message I received in 1981 from my invisible friends, everything in my life unfolds in accordance with time.

    Ivan Antic

    PAA: You lived for many years withdrawn from public life. What prompted you to begin publishing? Was there a specific threshold of understanding you felt you had to reach before you were willing to put these ideas into writing, or did the writing itself become part of the realisation?

    Ivan Antic: In accordance with the message I received in 1981 from my invisible friends, everything in my life unfolds in accordance with time. For now, this is how it is; I do not know how it will be in the future. There are two reasons why I have not put myself forward publicly. The first is that this is the best way for me to preserve my self-awareness and independence. Writing and publishing books is quite enough for me to act while preserving my autonomy and freedom. The second reason is connected to the answer to the previous question. You must be careful about what you present to people; there are all kinds of people, and critical awareness is not the prevailing culture in the world. In addition, there are forces that meter out information and determine the right time for certain truths.

    You must align yourself with them as well, so that you do not suffer some mishap.

    PAA: The Shree Kapila Yantra logo you use combines the Templar cross with a Vedic yantra, the lotus, and the enneagram. How did you arrive at that synthesis — and does it represent a kind of personal cosmogram for your own development, or is it more universal?

    Ivan Antic: That symbol best represents what I said in response to question 7: the balance of the soul’s consciousness, its inner spiritual maturity, and its outer manifestation through material culture. The symbol points to their unity.

    PAA: You position science and ethics as arising from the same fundamental laws of nature, and argue that science is in essence “a more precise manifestation of soul consciousness.” Has working with modern physics — particularly quantum field theory — ever surprised you by revealing something about consciousness that your direct experience hadn’t already shown you?

    Ivan Antic: The only thing in science I could say has surprised me is how quantum computers work. They appear to operate in the field of the quantum vacuum, the same field from which universal consciousness arises and acts. I find the reports about the concealment of such research, particularly Google’s Willow, especially interesting. A problem appears to have arisen in controlling such computers and their results. If the answers come from the universal field of consciousness, this cannot be controlled in any way. Ethics arises from universal natural laws, but above all from people who are aligned with those laws. How many such people are there? I also find it amusing to observe the persistence and lies with which mainstream science tries to conceal the true nature of consciousness.

    It does so by stubbornly claiming that consciousness arises from matter (the brain), which is a complete absurdity, without a single piece of evidence. The “famous British school of lies” is especially prominent in this. One of its representatives, who presents himself as an expert on consciousness, recently stated that “we know with certainty that consciousness arises in the brain, although we do not know how.” The Monty Python circus is still running. It does not need the original screenwriters. I understand that there was justification for this in earlier times, at the beginning of the development of science. In order for that development to proceed from the foundations, it was first necessary to understand the laws of the physical dimension before moving on to the study of higher dimensions.

    But it is difficult to understand how they fail to see how quickly consciousness and understanding are accelerating and changing. In their effort to adhere to scientific principles, they have become an obstacle to the development of those principles.

    PAA: You write that “common sense is the only religion a human being really needs” — but a common sense that encompasses all dimensions of nature, not just the material. For someone raised in a mainstream secular or religious household, what is the first genuinely practical step toward expanding that common sense?

    Ivan Antic: Meditation. From understanding to practice.

    Books

    PAA: The Physics of Consciousness traces consciousness through the quantum field, minerals, plants, animals, and then into the human soul. Rather than treating consciousness as an emergent property of matter, you reverse the arrow entirely — matter is what happens within consciousness. What was the most difficult scientific argument you had to make that case that you felt the established physics community might legitimately push back on?

    Ivan Antic: That consciousness precedes matter. This has been the only universal question since the beginning of human culture. The entire evolution of humankind revolves around this question: whether consciousness or matter lies at the foundation of everything. The logical answer is that our evolution in understanding material reality will advance to the extent that we understand the true nature of consciousness. The reverse is not possible because science has already proven that matter does not exist in itself as an object. How long will we wait before reaching the logical conclusion that consciousness is primary? Who will officially decide this? Trump?

    PAA: In Samadhi: Unity of Consciousness and Existence, you describe chakras not as mystical metaphors but as real psycho-energetic junctions where consciousness and existence interpenetrate. For a reader who is skeptical of the chakra system but genuinely open to the physics of consciousness, what would you point to as the most verifiable or experientially accessible evidence that these junctions are real?

    Ivan Antic: Compare the consciousness of a sexual maniac with that of the Buddha, and the difference between the lower and higher energy centers will be clear. The teaching on chakras is a way to understand how the physics of consciousness is embedded in our biology and psychology, and how it manifests in our actions. We all know that states of consciousness exist. In practice, chakras speak of these states. We all know that everything positive and evolutionary is associated with what is directed upward, while everything negative and degenerative is connected with the downward direction. In the same way, chakras, through their vertical position in the body and their functions, speak of consciousness and psycho-physical action.

    Thanks to the tanmātras, we retain sensory perception even after leaving the body and entering higher dimensions.

    Ivan Antic

    PAA: Samkhya: An Ancient Science of Nature and the Human Soul is arguably the most scholarly of your works. You’ve said that Samkhya is “the most expressive and most objective science of the soul on this planet.” What drew you specifically to Samkhya over Vedanta or Buddhist Abhidharma as your primary metaphysical language — and what does Samkhya see that those other systems miss?

    Ivan Antic: What is essential to Sāṃkhya is its schematic presentation of all the categories of nature and their relationship to consciousness. That schema is like a universal map of all existence. First, it divides nature into the inorganic and organic worlds. The inorganic world contains the tanmātras, the astral prototypes of our senses, while the great elements represent all the dimensions of nature. Thanks to the tanmātras, we retain sensory perception even after leaving the body and entering higher dimensions. Thanks to them, we perceive inorganic nature. On the other side are the indriyas, the sensory and active organs of which all living beings are composed, and living beings are classified according to the number of these organs they possess. Above them is reason, possessed only by a being complete with all sensory and active organs: the human being.

    Above this entire division as a whole are the principles of individuality and the intellect. This is everything that exists as nature, or prakṛti. The consciousness that enables and transcends nature is puruṣa. All other teachings stop at one of the categories of prakṛti. Some glorify other worlds as divine, with enjoyment in them as the goal, but that is only one of the dimensions of nature. Others glorify the highest intellect and insight (viveka) into the unity of all things (advaita), but that is only the highest category of nature, called buddhi. When you have a perfectly accurate map of the whole of existence, you cannot get lost on your path toward the highest awareness. The only problem in self-realization has always been that you become stuck in some content of consciousness (prakṛti) without being aware of it.

    Sāṃkhya makes this impossible because it covers all dimensions of the manifestation of consciousness.

    PAA: Metaphysics of Astrology: Why Astrology Works is a bold title in an era when astrology is either dismissed by scientists or commercialised beyond recognition. You’re arguing for a genuine causal mechanism. Could you sketch the core of that mechanism — what exactly is the moon, a planet, or a conjunction actually doing to the soul and its circumstances?

    Ivan Antic: Understanding algorithms reveals the very core of how the planets act upon us. The planets, as the action of a larger whole, create algorithmic schemas by which action unfolds here, within a smaller whole. We experience this not only as natural phenomena but also as events that mark our fate. There is also the understanding of the universe as a hologram. If Mars, in its transit over Uranus—Uranus having been in a certain place at the time of my birth—acts upon me, and on that very day I suffer a head injury (as once happened), one thing becomes clear to me: this Mars is not outside me, nor is Uranus, even though Uranus is not in that place now, but was there long ago. All of this exists in the timeless reality of the holographic universe. All of this is my being.

    Astrology, better than anything else, teaches us in practice that our body is not only this small physical body, but that our being is the whole of nature, the whole cosmos, and that we are connected with the planets in the same unity as the cells of our body. The study of astrology expands our consciousness more than any other practice. For what strikes you on the head cannot be ignored, nor can you doubt it through abstract theories.

    PAA: Everything Is Perfect: Why Do We Not See It carries perhaps the most demanding claim in your entire body of work — that there are no genuine mistakes from the perspective of divine consciousness. For a reader who has survived trauma, loss, or injustice, that idea can feel not just abstract but actively offensive. How do you hold space for real human suffering while also maintaining the integrity of that claim?

    Ivan Antic: I think I explained this through examples throughout the book. The book was written precisely to expand common perception in several ways. Understanding evil and suffering is closely connected with understanding the true nature of the soul, that is, of consciousness. Only the experience of insight into the true nature of consciousness can give us true insight into life, especially into the question of suffering. All true teachings tell us that suffering exists only because of ignorance. We must also understand the question of dimensions and the place our world occupies in the great order of things. We certainly do not exist in the consciousness of unity, not even in the higher dimensions where such consciousness is near. Here, we are in a somewhat more distant place, where the law of opposites and many other laws prevail, so things are somewhat more conditioned.

    However, access to redemptive consciousness is always possible because consciousness lies at the foundation of everything. For example, I have had many out-of-body experiences, and they immediately removed all fear of death. More precisely, they removed the fear that death is the end of life. What remained was the desire for life, as the only current way for me to participate in the learning and maturation that are possible only here. I respect what happens. While life lasts, I will respect it to the utmost. When the time comes for me to leave, I will respect that too, fully and with the same enjoyment as in physical life. I have the same attitude toward other people’s lives and toward cases of death.

    If someone died young and we grieve for him, did we know him before birth and see what plan he had brought for his life and its duration? If we did not, and if we do not know that such plans exist, then all that remains for us is to suffer because of what we can see. Many times, I have also noticed that if something caused me suffering and I could not see its cause, much later in life, I discovered that there had, after all, been a good reason that led to a positive outcome. There is another argument to consider when we do not want to accept that everything is perfect. Terrible things exist, but so do wonderful things. Many people suffer, but many also enjoy bliss, have attained realization, and would not exchange this world and this life for anything else.

    If only one thing existed, only suffering, then rejecting the view that everything is perfect would be justified. If the opposite state also exists—happiness, realization, and freedom, even to the smallest degree—then not everything is black, and the world is not a prison with no way out. Then the issue is causality, which we do not fully see. Apart from events, perfection can also be seen in the design of nature. Enjoyment of nature has a healing effect even on the most severe depression. Certainly, that healing effect would be much greater if we were somewhat better informed about the details of nature’s action. For example, how photosynthesis works in plant cells. According to everything contemporary science knows, this process is impossible. And yet we all live thanks to it.

    Such details would show us, with unmistakable clarity, that nature is not only a great mechanism of material action, but also a stage upon which all the miracles of divine consciousness act. Although their source is invisible, their effects are visible. All around you are such miracles, which would heal you of difficulties and expand your consciousness and perception, if only you had seen them clearly enough. Simply, nothing could exist if it were not perfect.

    PAA: Your newest book, I Ching: Algorithm of Divine Intelligence, proposes that the 64 hexagrams could serve as the foundation for an artificial intelligence genuinely aligned with nature. That’s an extraordinary claim at a very particular moment in history. Do you think AI, as currently developed — trained on human data rather than on the laws of intelligent design — poses a specific danger that your hexagram-based model would not? And is there a team of researchers you’d want to have that conversation with?

    Ivan Antic: AI will certainly pose a danger as long as it remains based on the limited human mind. Its results would be relative, with some positive and some negative effects. AI would only amplify this. The source of consciousness has always been transcendental; it has never come from below—from what has already been created. The essence of consciousness lies in creativity that transcends the known; everything that moves within the closed circle of the known is not consciousness, although it can still be useful enough as intelligence. Therefore, I believe we must clearly distinguish consciousness from intelligence when discussing AI. Intelligence is the use of consciousness. If by intelligence we mean the skillful processing of existing data, then that is all right and can be useful for many kinds of work.

    But if AI is spoken of as consciousness, then it should be immediately clear to us that someone wants to foist upon us a false idea of consciousness. The aim is to deceive us so that we do not arrive at the truth about consciousness: that it is one and the same in all of us. If we became aware of this, no one would wage war, and that would be a major problem for the military industry. Some voices say that Willow has been taken over by the military. I do not know what is happening beyond that. I believe that the algorithms of the I Ching can be effectively implemented on a quantum computer. A quantum computer cannot be controlled or abused, just as the I Ching cannot, because both act in the same way, from the same universal field.

    This would certainly have to be a universal AI that operates globally and connects all other AI systems, for example, to create a world economy. However, I doubt that such work would appeal to those running BlackRock. As long as inhuman goals and interests exist, it will not be possible to create or establish AI on the foundations of fundamental natural laws. Perhaps I am mistaken, but I do not see how it could fit into the current war between the Taliban and the Satanists.

    PAA: Thank you, Ivan, for such a thought-provoking interview, I have really enjoyed reading your answers.

    Ivan Antic — Official Website

    About Ivan Antic

    Complete Book Catalogue

    The Physics of Consciousness

    Samadhi: Unity of Consciousness and Existence

    Metaphysics of Astrology: Why Astrology Works

    Awakening: The Unity of the Outer and Inner Worlds

    Samkhya: An Ancient Science of Nature and the Human Soul

    The Moon: Magnet for the Soul

    Everything Is Perfect: Why Do We Not See It

    I Ching: Algorithm of Divine Intelligence


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  • Tower Time: Taylor Ellwood and Sheena Witter on Magic, Collapse and Transformation

    Tower Time: Taylor Ellwood and Sheena Witter on Magic, Collapse and Transformation

    Introduction

    The Tower is probably one of the most feared cards in the Tarot. Most people see it and immediately think of disaster, collapse, loss, or everything suddenly going wrong.

    But Tower Time by Taylor Ellwood and Sheena Witter looks at the card in a much deeper way. The Tower is not only something terrible that happens to us. It can reveal the structures we have built our lives around, including identities, relationships, beliefs, ambitions, fears, and survival patterns that may no longer be serving us.

    The book explores how we move through these periods of major change using Tarot, scrying, body awareness, inner alchemy, spirit work, and practical magical preparation. It also asks an important question: what happens when we stop using magic only as an emergency response and begin building a magical life that can actually support us when things fall apart?

    In this interview, Taylor and Sheena discuss how their own understanding of the Tower changed, how to recognise a true Tower Time, why people often rebuild the same structures after escaping them, and how personal transformation connects with the much larger systems shaping our lives.

    This is a thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation about collapse, change, magic, identity, and what may become possible once the old structure can no longer remain standing.

    You can order Tower Time directly as a paperback or ebook. It is also available through a range of online book retailers.


    Taylor Ellwood and Sheena Witter discuss Tower Time, Tarot and magical transformation

    PAA: The Tower is one of tarot’s most feared cards, but Tower Time treats it as a teacher, initiator, and magical force. What did each of you have to unlearn about the Tower before you could write this work?

    Taylor – The initial lesson came when I read for a client. She had lost her job. I pulled the Tower card during her reading, and instead of looking at it as an indicator of disaster, I became curious. What did this card offer my client? I invited her to get curious with me. What we discovered together was that the card was inviting her to leave behind everything that wasn’t working in her life and go on an adventure. She took that adventure, and it changed her life in all the right ways. And it showed me an essential truth about the tower: It strips away what isn’t needed so you can return to what matters.

    Sheena – I had to unlearn shame, judgment, and the fear of punishment.

    I was raised in a religious household with very clear rules about what was acceptable to explore, and Tarot was definitely not on that list. When I first started quietly experimenting, the very first card I ever pulled was the Tower. I was terrified. I honestly thought God was going to smite me, or that I had opened some door I was going to be punished for opening.

    But my curiosity is insatiable, and I kept coming back. Over the years, every time I circled back to Tarot, the Tower was there. If someone read for me, there it was. If I bought a new deck and pulled a card, there it was again. For a long time, I thought it meant I was doing something wrong. Eventually, I began to understand that the Tower was not threatening me. It was initiating me. It was asking me to dismantle the shame, fear, and inherited judgment that kept me from trusting my own direct relationship with magic.

    PAA: The title Tower Time suggests more than a single crisis moment. How do you define Tower Time, and how can someone recognize when they are moving through one rather than simply experiencing ordinary difficulty?

    Taylor – A Tower Time is an experience of change and transformation that strips away what isn’t working in your life. It can feel like everything is collapsing, and it is quite scary because you are often losing the structures of your life that you thought were stable. A Tower Time can be a divorce or a job loss or a death in the family, or it can be a health scare or some other experience that challenges the status quo of your existence and calls everything into question. Yet, it is also one of the most enlightening and powerful experiences you can have, because the fall of the tower is also the invitation to opportunity and discovering what really matters in your life.

    Sheena – We all face difficulties. Living life brings circumstances, disruptions, risks, failures, and successes. Not every hard thing is a Tower Time. Sometimes a difficulty is simply something uncomfortable that needs support, a solution, or time.

    Tower Time is not just about difficulty. Difficulty asks us to respond. Tower Times forces us to see what our lives have been built around.

    Tower Times begins when what is falling apart is not only the circumstances but also our underlying system of meaning. A crisis stops being something happening to your life and starts revealing the architecture of your life. In Tower Times, you see what the structure has been built on: the beliefs, roles, identities, loyalties, protections, compromises, and survival strategies holding it together.

    There is often a felt sense of before and after. You experience something, see something, or understand something you cannot un-know. They become part of the “highlight reel” of life. The moment something changed. Even events that look “good” on the surface can become Tower Times, because it is about the meaning they have for you.

    PAA: One of the strongest ideas in Tower Time is that people do not only suffer Towers — they build them. What are some of the Towers people construct through control, duty, performance, isolation, spiritual ambition, or survival?

    Taylor – People do build towers, often with the best of intentions and without realizing they are building towers. A Tower you build can be a relationship you stay in out of obligation, or a career you got into with high ambitions, without recognizing the cost. The Tower feels comfortable, and the walls you build feel safe, until one day you have really blocked your view of the world and lost the freedom of expression and being that all of us long for, and so few of us live.

    Sheena – Our biggest constructed Towers are around our identities. As soon as we complete the sentence “ I AM…” The first stone is laid. When we take on labels or descriptors as identities and then start making decisions and living life through the lens of that identity, we are building Towers. So many of our Tower Times involve the shaking up or loss of identity; the core of who we believe ourselves to be is challenged.

    And it doesn’t start with us, even though we are the builders. Think back to childhood. The adults in your life. How did they finish the sentence: “You are…”

    How has that shaped your entire existence, the actions you have taken in the past and take now, and the way you see and move through the world?

    PAA: You contrast emergency magic with magical infrastructure. What does it mean to build a magical life before things fall apart, instead of reaching for magic only when everything is already burning?

    Taylor – When you reach for magic in a state of emergency or because of a problem, it’s an act of reaction and an attempt to get back to the status quo. Ironically, it is one of the most unmagical approaches you can take to magic, to use magic as a reaction. In contrast, creating a magical life requires a level of honesty and integrity that you will be held to by your magic. It’s mapping out the long-term outcomes and then casting the magic to create them… and let me be clear: it’s not trying to create a problem-free life. If anything, a lot will fall away in your life, but the difference is that you will be continually oriented toward what really matters and the magical life you live as a result.

    Sheena – Emergency magic is what you reach for when you still believe magic is separate from your life. Magical infrastructure is what happens when you are in an ongoing relationship with your magic. It is the daily, weekly, seasonal, embodied, practical, and spiritual foundation that helps you stay connected to yourself, your allies, your tools, your body, your values, and your Spirits before crisis arrives.

    There is nothing wrong with emergency magic; we even teach classes on it. Emergency magic can give us a sense of agency and focus our attention, which can be vital in the moment. But if the only time you practice is in crisis, you are trying to effect change from a survival state, you don’t have access to the same physical, energetic, and magical resources you would otherwise. If you cultivate a magical life and a strong infrastructure, you have habits and a support system to hold you through the challenges.

    For us, tarot, scrying, and divination are not about outsourcing our authority. They are tools for pattern recognition, discernment, and experimentation.

    Sheena Witter

    PAA: Tarot, divination, and scrying play major roles in Tower Time. How can these practices help readers see the hidden architecture of a Tower rather than getting lost in fear, projection, or confusion?

    Taylor – These are pattern-recognition tools that help people get out of their own way and see the patterns that lock them into Tower situations. The Tower is an alchemical lesson that continually strips away what isn’t true to you. You can use divination, scrying, and various other forms of the oracle to see the self-imposed walls you’ve built around yourself. And then you have a choice…tear the walls down and let the Tower fall, or keep it up and continue to live a smaller existence as a result.

    Sheena – Tarot and scrying create a symbolic field outside the body where those threads of a situation can be seen, named, and separated out.

    For us, tarot, scrying, and divination are not about outsourcing our authority. They are tools for pattern recognition, discernment, and experimentation. They help us see the architecture beneath the collapse, but we still have to test and see how it lands in our body, lived reality, and the consequences of our choices. They help us remain curious and ask better questions.

    PAA: The body is treated as a source of magical intelligence throughout Tower Time. What can illness, pain, exhaustion, numbness, or nervous-system response reveal that the mind may be avoiding?

    Taylor – Your body is always communicating with you. We’ve been taught to disregard that communication, but when you really tap into your body’s awareness, you’ll discover it already knows how trapped, tired, and exhausted you feel. And if you listen and make changes, your life circumstances will change as well. For example, if you are tired, get more sleep and watch how that seemingly simple choice creates a ripple effect in your life.

    Sheena – Our minds make and protect our stories. Our bodies reveal the cost. Our minds are rationalizing, meaning-making machines. They can keep explaining why something is fine, necessary, noble, practical, or unavoidable. They can justify anything. Illness, pain, exhaustion, and nervous-system responses can show us where we have been overriding ourselves. I do not treat symptoms as simple spiritual messages, although I have in the past; again, our minds are tricky! Bodies are complex. Illness requires care, support, and sometimes medical attention. But our bodies are constantly giving us feedback, highlighting what is not working for our systems and revealing the cost of living a life, identity, role, belief system, or relationship pattern that isn’t healthy for us, even as our mind may be rationalizing it and convincing us that we are making perfect sense.

    PAA: The inner alchemy sections connect Tower work with health, ancestry, memory, and transformation. Why is real change not just a mental or spiritual process, but something that has to be integrated through the body and lineage as well?

    Taylor – Fundamentally real change calls on us to look past the level of personality and get curious about our experience of identity. Who are you, really? You aren’t just a name or a personality. You are a person shaped by your ancestors and the patterns they lived and inherited and passed on to you. You are an identity shaped by your cultural, class, race, and so many other factors that are often ignored because there is a preference to focus on the illusion of individuality. Individuality is a comforting lie used to ignore the other variables of who you are and why you are the way you are. If you truly want to become your own person, you necessarily need to be willing to face all of your patterns and those patterns show up in your body, through your family, and in all the ways you navigate life. True transformation is a deliberate choice and it calls for the courage to let all of your towers fall away and ask what is truly left.

    Sheena – How many times have you changed your mind in the last hour? We have new thoughts constantly, but a new thought is not the same as a transformation. Real change begins when insight becomes action, and action happens through the body.

    That is why Tower work cannot stay purely mental or spiritual. We can understand a pattern and still have a body that is living inside old structures. We can do a ritual around a wound and still repeat the inherited response the moment we feel afraid, unsafe, or unseen. Lineage matters because many of our Towers are not only personal. They come through family stories, religious conditioning, ancestral survival strategies, and nervous system patterns we absorbed before we had words for them.

    Our mind can leave the old Tower before our body does. Freeing our minds is often the first step, but Inner Alchemy is the work of returning to our bodies to examine and transmute inherited patterns, so we do not unconsciously rebuild the same structures we are trying to leave behind.

    The spirits are mirrors, in a way, they show us a lot about ourselves, albeit from a nonhuman perspective.

    Taylor Ellwood

    PAA: The chapters on Tower Spirits bring in daemonic spirits, planetary spirits, elemental spirits, and death-rebirth work. How do spirit relationships help a practitioner move through endings without becoming trapped in fear or control?

    Taylor – The spirits are mirrors, in a way, they show us a lot about ourselves, albeit from a nonhuman perspective. Spirits show that endings are transitions. The ending is also a beginning. Even death is a transition. It is an ending, but it’s also a beginning. The spirits can be companions and guides that make the journey a bit less lonely. Of course, this also depends on our relationships with the spirits. If you need to control and coerce spirits, that will create hostile relationships and they may be less inclined to help when you really need it.

    Sheena – Both Spirit work and Tower work are fundamentally about discovering who we are and how we are in relationship. Both call us into greater relationship and presence within ourselves and with both the seen and unseen worlds. It is in relationships that we experience ourselves. Every relationship can evoke aspects of ourselves that we can’t access in isolation. The “who I am, with this being, in this present experience.” It could be with another person, an animal, an aspect of nature, or a spirit.

    When you truly meet another, without agenda, without control, the fear isn’t there – and when it shows up, you have a greater capacity to name it and allow it to metabolize into curiosity and wonder. We have to learn how to do this, it’s not something we are really taught to do, so being in relationship with Spirits gives you practice and really allows you to explore aspects of existence that aren’t embodied, which does have a way of dissolving some of the fears surrounding endings and death. We get to see and experience the aspects of ourselves that exist beyond the body, and that is an amazing gift.

    PAA: One of the boldest parts of Tower Time is the idea of invoking the Tower deliberately. What kind of discernment, timing, and safeguards are necessary before someone chooses a controlled burn instead of waiting for collapse?

    Taylor – I’ve gone through a few such experiences. First, it calls on the decision to give up control of the experience. That can be scary, but it is in the loss of control that we really discover who we are and open ourselves to the possibilities that we thought were out of our reach. I do recommend working with Saturn as a force that simultaneously collapses towers and creates boundaries. That paradox can help you navigate the tower experience and invite the catalysts necessary to propel change. You can fall apart and put yourself back together again.

    Sheena – In addition to magic, my background is in Somatic Trauma integration, and I focus on psychedelic journey integration. Set and setting truly do matter. Do you have a plan to tend to mind/body/soul as you do the work? What are your support systems? Are you titrating your experience? Traumatic experiences are often experienced when our systems are exposed to “too much, too soon.” We have consciously and intentionally incorporated somatic embodiment and integration into all of our exploratory activities and magical practices in Tower Time because we have experienced ourselves and seen firsthand the damage it can do when we don’t take the totality of our being and our experiences into account.

    It is also a matter of degrees. There is a massive difference between exploratory work – noticing patterns and looking at your shadow material, and blowing up your life. There is wisdom in the advice not to take immediate action on any life-altering decisions right after a traumatic experience, a medicine journey, or a big life change. Those events do shake us up; they can be the Tower Moments, and sometimes, despite knowing the importance of integration and giving ourselves time to do the work, we do it, we’re human, but the more work we have done before those moments, the easier it is to respond instead of react. Like any exercise or skill development, it’s about building our capacity.

    PAA: In the final sections, Tower Time expands into collective Towers: the pandemic, inherited systems, the Castle, attention economies, community, and AI. What do you hope readers understand about the relationship between personal transformation and the larger structures shaping our world?

    Taylor – I hope readers will come away with a recognition that collective Tower moments are invitations to look at where we are going collectively, and they call on us to make a choice. Who do we really become as a collective when we face the towers we have constructed as a society? At the time of this writing, we are facing many Towers, and what falls away and what remains will call for transformations that many of us may not survive. We still have time, but how we use that time calls on us to recognize the Tower rather than turn a blind eye to it and our circumstances.

    Sheena – I hope readers feel some grace and self-compassion. Our personal Towers are never only personal. We are born into systems, stories, economies, technologies, family patterns, and inherited structures that shape us before we even know we are being shaped. So when something collapses, I don’t want people to immediately treat it as a private failure. We all do this, and our systems are designed to trigger those feelings within us. If it’s a personal failure, then the system isn’t responsible. It’s insidious and one of the greatest spells forced upon us.

    At the same time, seeing the larger structures does not remove our agency. It gives us a more honest understanding of the systems that control us, our place within them, and our contributions to them. Once we can see what has isolated us, frightened us, controlled our attention, or convinced us we are alone, we can begin to choose differently. The real work of Tower Time is learning how to stop mistaking the structures that isolate us for the truth of who we are.

    Personal transformation and collective transformation are not separate. What we do with our own Towers affects the whole. What we build together offers us more possibilities and is far more magical than anything any of us could access or create alone.

    PAA: Thank you both very much for your detailed answers and we wish you all the best with this fantastic new release.

    Taylor Ellwood and Sheena Witter discuss Tower Time, Tarot and magical transformation

  • Martin McGreggor: Satanism, Ars Zoetia, Fallen Angels, and Inner Transformation

    Martin McGreggor: Satanism, Ars Zoetia, Fallen Angels, and Inner Transformation

    Inroducion

    In this Perseus Arcane Academy interview, Martin of SinisterSide.com discusses the development of his Satanic practice, the evolution of his written work, and the shift from identity-based Satanism toward structured, practice-driven transformation. The conversation explores his books, including Paths to Satan, Book of the Fallen, The Deification Magick Spellbook, Ars Zoetia, and The Social Magick Spellbook, alongside deeper questions on Fallen Angels, spirit contact, discernment, public misunderstanding, magical responsibility, and the relationship between inner work and real-world change


    Interview

    Belief System & Philosophical Development

    PAA: In Paths to Satan, your aim was clearly to make the path accessible, whereas Book of the Fallen feels more like a consolidation of long-term development. What changed internally for you between those works?

    Your distinction between those two works is really well stated, I think. All of my books have had a specific purpose, and in the case of Paths, that purpose was to support other Satanists’ ability to live openly amongst their friends, family, and peers. Many Satanists use it as a gateway book for people in their lives who are interested in Satanism or may be looking to become Satanists themselves. I am truly honored by that and love that it has become a work of inclusion and accessibility, but to be honest, at the time I wrote Paths specifically with the non-Satanist in mind. While it may be an affirming and supportive book for those upon the path, it can be quite the opposite for those outside the community like parents, extended family, and friends. The truths about Satanism presented in Paths may seem like basic concepts for us, but they can be completely alien and contradictory to what has been traditionally taught and believed by the majority of the world.

    It can be exceedingly difficult to live an openly Satanic lifestyle without becoming subject to vile insinuations and asinine assumptions regarding morals, character, and even criminality. The sworn enemies of Satan say whatever they wish and the masses believe all of it, quite literally as gospel. I didn’t want that to be the case simply due to a lack of rebuttal. Paths was written as much to contradict as it was to confirm. But internally, this very much spoke to where I was within my life at that time, and what was important to me. As a 27 year old who had already struggled with openness and revealing my faith, as well as with creating Satan-centric businesses and projects, I was done listening to the uninformed opinions of outsiders regarding what constituted Satanism and Satanic practice. What it meant to be a Satanist. And then having to contend with those all-too-common presumptions any time I decided to be honest about my spirituality or tried to operate openly in the public space. That is what I cared about that time, and so that is what caused Paths to be written.

    Likewise, when I wrote Fallen, my personal practice had taken my focus away from public works and instead on my own inner mastery and ability. After writing Paths and getting those concepts off my chest, I came to a clear understanding that if I wanted to continue to share knowledge and insight and wisdom with the Satanic community, I should spend the time necessary to properly learn and master, to the best of my abilities, before sharing. There was a seven year gap between Paths and Fallen, of which I spent a lot of time in personal study. A couple dark nights of the soul, a confirmatory spiritual interaction or two, a complete re-wiring of what my practice was and meant. By year five I had landed on a consistent spiritual practice that I could honestly call my own, and I had a philosophical basis that wasn’t scared of honest scrutiny or skepticism. It no longer became important to me whether I was right or wrong. I was simply being honest about what I had lived, and learned, and experienced, and that had become what drove my Satanism. In the afterglow, or maybe more appropriately the aftermath, I realized that passing on a clear roadmap for what I had done was actually needed. What I had stumbled through, and many of the failures I had suffered, could have been avoided with a guiding hand. At that point, Fallen was conceptualized and it was simply a matter of outlining what needed to be shared and then putting the words to paper.

    So, a simple answer to the question would be: everything changed internally for me between those two works. But the books themselves paint a pretty clear picture of where I was in my practice at the time of their writing, what my priorities were, and what I hoped to change within my own world through their writing. Paths was centered on acceptance and how I was perceived by the outside world. Fallen focused almost exclusively on internal issues, from personal philosophy and ethics to ritual habits and meditative techniques. It is a pretty clear representation of my own personal practice and focus shifting from externally-driven perception to internally-derived truth.

    PAA: You’ve described your approach as moving toward a more mature and less reactive form of Satanism. How would you define that maturity now, compared to how you saw the path in your early years?

    This is a great question. When I first started upon my path, like many Satanists, I became very wrapped up in the adversarial nature of it. My Satanism was much more about what I wasn’t instead of allowing it to become the cornerstone for what I wanted to become. Essentially my practice was more concerned with others, what they believed, and my reaction to it as a Satanist, instead of being more focused on myself and what Satanism was bringing to my life. Probably the easiest way to sum this up would be to say that I took time to learn and explore what (my) Satan and Satanism is actually adversarial toward specifically, instead of treating it like a blanket position to be applied to all things. I found that while Satanism is in fact the most inclusive religion in the world, and Satan will revel in many things that other Gods and religions may revile, it is life itself, and the freedom to experience it in every possible way, that Satan is truly advocating for.

    You will not be held back, and you will not find limits to that which Satan will accept as pious offering, but likewise an unbalanced reverence of death, demise, and endings is a sure way to step off the path. Satan is the most wholesome God that can be accepted into your life – not in the colloquial way we use it today wrapped up within morality and piety, but in the true sense of the word. All-encompassing. Everything. The good, the bad, the brutal and the ugly, Satan is the God of it all. He revels in the lion feasting upon the flesh of the zebra, and He laughs triumphantly when cloven hoof strikes the hungry maw, allowing the hunted to surpass its position in life and achieve a future that was not always guaranteed. Satan wants us to exceed our bequeathed lot in life, but will accept equally the natural state of the world that may indeed crush us during the attempt. It is the Satanist’s duty to prepare for the challenge, and use the wisdom Satan offers us to be ready and able to turn the tables upon the world itself when it takes aim at our lives and livelihoods. That is probably the best summation I can provide.

    PAA: Your work draws from multiple traditions while maintaining a distinct identity. How do you personally navigate the balance between influence and dilution when integrating ideas from different systems?

    Anything that aids in my practice is fair game as far as I am concerned. Satan, or maybe more accurate the entity named as Satan, has been known to every civilization and religion across the globe. Different names, different nuances in the way they see him, but He has been a part of every spiritual system born from the hearts and spirits of humanity. Part of a Satanist’s duty is to expose themselves to different teachings and practices that may serve their own, and additionally, to at least contemplate what part Satan played in their creation. To answer your question more specifically though, necessity is the father of invention and experimentation is the mother of efficacy. I don’t concern myself with things becoming watered down. If I try something and it doesn’t work or doesn’t elicit the reaction within the ritual or myself that I am looking for, I either discard it or make changes. When I feel there is something missing from my current practice, because it does shift and change quite radically depending on what spirits I am working with and what my overall goal is at the time, I start looking for inspiration wherever it may come. Most often, as soon as I open myself to the search, the answers come flying in and I find synchronicity and meaning in places where I would have never thought to look, especially if I were to keep things to a strictly Satanic lens. But at the same time, I am quite secure in my beliefs and I can sift through teachings that are contrary to my own philosophy without getting bogged down in questions or insecurity.

    I search for aspects of practices that serve my current purpose, and as long as I stay true to my intention, it becomes fairly easy to twist whatever I am looking at towards my own goals. With that being said though, there are many teachings I will consciously avoid pulling from, if only because their history and traditions feel repugnant to me. In those cases, unless I am specifically looking to blaspheme them, I simply do not use them as sources of information or inspiration. Ritual and magic should be full of things that empower you and bring your mind, body, and soul into union. That is when things start taking off. So, my philosophy is to pull from absolutely anything that will help me achieve that, regardless of its origin. Many teachings and traditions would do the opposite, pulling me away from union and into discord, and that is truly my only litmus test when searching for new techniques. Anything can be made Satanic if it is done so by a capable and creative Satanist. And it doesn’t always simply mean blasphemy and adversarialism.

    PAA: In your writing, there’s a noticeable shift from identity-based Satanism toward something more functional and practice-driven. Was that an intentional move, or something that emerged through experience?

    There was very much a conscious shift in the nature of the written work, but I’d say the cause was actually a mix of the two reasons you mentioned. Not to repeat myself, but each of my works have a distinct purpose and reason for being written, and the shift you are talking about came about because I was both learning a lot through experience and experimentation, but also consciously deciding that my written works needed to transition from what it means to be a Satanist, to how to be a Satanist. Many of us adopt the mantle out of an innate understanding that it is where we belong. But we get left with little else, and generally have to establish our own traditions and practices personally. I wanted my body of work to speak to every level of Satanist, from the first-day initiate to a years-in adept, and the only way to do that was to provide information and guidance for those that had moved past the initial stages of their practice.

    Furthermore, my books are a pretty good insight into the work I have done in the years prior to their release. While Paths and Fallen were imagined and written with a much broader pen, my subsequent works have been fairly grounded in the work I was doing one to three years prior to their writing, and the books themselves become a sort of magical journal that I just happen to share with the world. I am sure if you were to look at my personal life and practice you would find a great deal of insight into why certain books were written, with the cause invariably being – that was what I was working on prior to their release. As I have transitioned between phases of my own Satanism, my books have also transitioned into more of a living chronicle of my own progress. If it ever seems like it takes me forever to put out new books, this is the reason. I write fast but there is generally 2-5 years of work that goes on behind the scenes, and I only write the book when I feel I have learned the lessons of that work and am ready to share my findings with the world. I believe this to be one of the few ways a sincere Satanic leader can operate without centuries of traditions to back them up. We have to forge our own way, and sometimes it takes a while before we are ready to bring those new teachings to light.

    This is why unless you are seeking to replicate a famous working, or perform a specific ritual of someone else’s design, your rituals should be wholly unique to you. Your coding is different than anyone else’s. You are running on a language that is wholly your own. The tools and methods you bring into ritual allow you to create your own code.

    Martin McGreggor

    Practice, Method, and Inner Work

    PAA: Your systems place a strong emphasis on structured practice—sigils, effigies, staged processes. What did you learn through experience that led you to favor this level of structure?

    I learned what worked. For me. Ritual and magic are nothing more than learning the process of programming the self. Yes, they can be witnessed and joined by spirits and demons, or even Satan Himself. Yes, their presence can lend incredible amounts of power and meaning to the work. But the process itself is simply meant to make you capable of achieving the things you have set aim to. To become what you seek to be, and to gain what you feel you are missing. Effigies, sigils, magical languages, candles, bells, incense – all of it is simply the ingredients you have chosen to make up that programming. Each aspect may have its own meaning, power, and influences, but they are still just the tools you have chosen to help change the reality surrounding yourself. For me, that meant developing the methods found within books like the Deification Magick spellbook, and Ars Zoetia. These are the tools, the code, that I use to program myself.

    This is why unless you are seeking to replicate a famous working, or perform a specific ritual of someone else’s design, your rituals should be wholly unique to you. Your coding is different than anyone else’s. You are running on a language that is wholly your own. The tools and methods you bring into ritual allow you to create your own code. And for me, taking bits and pieces of other languages and twisting them into my own was the only thing that was going to work. Personally I think this is probably the case for the vast majority of practicing occultists and Satanists today. I have just happened to reach the stage in my practice where the overall structure is in place, and now I spend most of my time finding new pieces to fit within that structure, or actively using the pieces I have compiled for a specific purpose.

    PAA: In The Deification Magick Spellbook, your work focuses heavily on self-dissolution as a precursor to transformation. How did your own understanding of that process develop through practice?

    I would certainly agree that dissolution is central to the work within the Deification Magick spellbook, both of the self and of the entire practice. The theology and spiritual presumptions you bring with you into the work must be purged as much as any other part of the self. Satan is indeed the only God truly willing to put himself on the pyre in the pursuit of your godhood. Not only must your loyalty and service to His cause be removed, but also your attachment to your status as a Satanist. The spiritual aspects of yourself that will hold you back are but a single piece of the puzzle, and the whole thing must be cleared from the table if you are going to honestly partake in that kind of work. For many years my identity was tied up within Satanism, and I would have sooner sacrificed myself than anything that had to do with my relationship with Satan. But in the end, I realized that all of those crutches were simply that – something for me, as a human, to lean on and provide stability when things got hard. The mythology around the Grigori and many of their individual histories became a great boon in my understanding of this, which is in part why they play such a pivotal role in my portion of the Deification spellbook. While the runes are presented as a divination tool, there are many lessons hidden among them that benefit the aspiring deific. But if you are truly to become a god in and of yourself, a being capable of mastering their own existence and their own nature, to bend the laws of reality to your will and create a world of your own choosing, you must face the fact that the being you are is most likely completely incapable.

    The idea of what you could be, though, is a much different story. We all remember the lesson Batman learned about his own nature. As a man he was limited and only capable of what his physical form could achieve. But as the idea of Batman, he became something else. Something out of legend and fable, something that was capable of great feats beyond the scope of mere mortals. A god of the night, stalking his prey in a way determined only by his own principles. The laws of men no longer apply, and this is the kind of interaction you need to establish with your god-self, and for most people, that means removing the mental blocks revolving around their own limitations. Clear the table. Immolate the idea of the self, as well as the meaning and attachment bound to Satan. Become something else. Like Batman. Something beyond what you consider yourself capable of. That is the lesson here. The work you do for yourself through this kind of action will deliver results beyond those that may be a result of any service or loyalty to Satan. That is not His currency.

    PAA: You often use external forms—symbols, constructed representations—as part of inner work. What role do these play in bridging internal and external experience?

    This is a fairly loaded question, so I will try to sum everything up as concisely as I am able, and hopefully I won’t miss any of the major points in doing so. As I mentioned before, the physical items you bring into magic and ritual are but the tools you use to program your own existence and life. Through thoughtful choosing, and consistent working with those items in the manner you have deemed fit, you program your mind to associate those items with their internal meaning. No matter whether the item represents something internal to you or an external entity, habit, disease, or idea, after consistently working with it you can train your mind to form the association. Additionally, the process you employ consistently becomes associative with the work you are doing. So while you may only be lighting incense and candles, ringing a bell, and saying prayers, over a consistent enough period of time that process in and of itself becomes associated with the work you are aiming for. After a long enough period, there is no difference in your brain between taking those actions and making progress towards your goal.

    Now, ideally, you are following that up with real work. Taking definitive real-world steps towards completion of your goal. And then you will find yourself looking back one day and discovering that the magic worked. This is due to many factors, not least of all the tapping of personal divinity through the process. But even outside of the magical context, what you do consistently determines what you are. If you are consistently practicing, consistently working, and consistently achieving, then no goal will remain out of your grasp for long. You have to become the thing that achieves what you are seeking. This is one of the reasons why so many teachers reinforce regular, if not daily, ritual. I think the real lesson gets lost in the conversation, though. Doing aimless ritual for connection and presence every day is not going to achieve anything material or result in successful magic. It will result in a deep and consistent connection with the spirits you work with, but at a certain point, you must begin to apply that magic, apply that ritual, and apply that connection to what you are actually seeking to achieve. Otherwise you will stagnate and lose heart before you have even begun to truly work. Or worse, you will blame the Gods themselves for not delivering what you desire.

    So much of what we “know” is simply what we believe, often due to assumption, non sequitur, and cultural tradition.

    Martin McGreggor

    PAA: When someone begins working through your material, what is the most important mindset shift they need to make for the practices to actually work?

    This answer may be geared more towards success in Satanism, or occult practice in general, than simply making use of my books. But it is where the question took me, so here you go: Understand that certainty is the enemy. The questions that bother you…the things that nag at you and won’t go away, even the doubts that make you feel as though you are lesser than other more “devout” Satanists, those are the most important things to hold on to. You don’t have to confront them right away, and in fact it is often best to simply allow them to sit unanswered. But don’t take them off the table, and certainly do not run from them. When you work at your spirituality, gain wisdom, and practice with sincerity and honesty, the answers will come exactly when you need them to, and your foundation will become unshakeable. Determine your principles and stick to them, especially when things become hard, and you will be rewarded far more than you would for any amount of spiritual service, devout loyalty, or grand supplication. But until then, ask the question, or at the very least, listen intently when someone else does. Hear the perspectives of others without latching onto them as gospel or dogma. Take nothing as certain, and allow a broader understanding of topics to grow as you are introduced to new thoughts and ideas on old topics. Never fall into conspiracy and be ever-vigilant to the non sequiturs that are so rife within the occult and spiritual space. Existence and presence do not always equate to favor or power. God does not always equate to creator, or omnipotence. Communication does not always equate to truth. So much of what we “know” is simply what we believe, often due to assumption, non sequitur, and cultural tradition. Learn, discern, work, and grow. If you do that, my books will become useful aids, but the real magic will be done, and lived, by you.

    Spirits, Forces, and Interaction

    PAA: Your work with Fallen Angels and related forces is central to your system. How has your understanding of these forces evolved through direct experience?

    I absolutely love this question. When approaching the Fallen Angels, the Grigori Watchers of Enoch, I chose to operate from as little information as possible. While there are numerous occult volumes dedicated to them, and little else honestly, I wanted to get my own personal reaction to their presence before exposing myself to any other teachings. It was a mind blowing experience. From a single structured spell to induce connection and presence, I was able to fully channel over 30 Fallen Angels, whom I have since made a central part of my own personal practice. I did so because that one limited experience with them was so impactful and beneficial that I knew I had found my personal pantheon almost immediately.

    They have been amazingly benevolent, active, encouraging and also inspiring, and our relationship has been incredibly productive. It is my belief that they truly were Humanity’s original guardians and guides, regardless of what status the Christian religion may have thrust upon them. Anything of real spiritual significance has, at some point, been adopted and warped by those teachings to hide their real power. Come to them with an honest heart and an open mind, and both will overrun by the time you are through. I did not approach them with trepidation, but I was also very cognizant of their primordial nature. No such entity should be contacted lightly. But the response I received surprised me on so many levels. I believe the Fallen want to be worked with. They want connection, and they have so much to offer. For anyone like myself, who saw the Goetic spirits and process as overly negative and one-sided, I would recommend reaching out to the Fallen Angels you feel most pulled toward. They are life-affirming, living, generous spirits ready to forge a connection. Working with them has been one of the most rewarding and gratifying spiritual experiences I have had.

    PAA: Many practitioners struggle to distinguish between imagination, symbolic interaction, and something more autonomous. How did you come to understand that distinction in your own practice?

    Experience is the only thing that will allow you to grow discernment, which is what we are talking about here. We’ve all heard the stories…the sons and daughters and husbands and wives of the gods. The spirits telling people exactly how right they are and how awesome their spiritual power is. Those people need a serious reality check. The occult is not a place for people who want to entertain fantasies at that level, because at the very least you will make a fool of yourself. At the worst you may get yourself into waters you aren’t prepared to swim in – and that isn’t an indictment of the spirits. It is an indictment of insincere and naive occultists. A lot of these people go really crazy, because they started out that way to a lesser degree, and couldn’t distinguish reality from the concepts they were interacting with. Discernment is the thing that keeps you sane. If you assume almost everything is simply your imagination, or your subconscious desires making their way to the surface, then it will take a serious spiritual interaction to shake you from that baseline. And the spirits will oblige.

    Most of us who have experienced consistent spirit contact will describe a feeling of being beaten over the head with experiences in quick succession. To the point that it becomes more absurd to put no weight on the experience than the alternative. You see one sign, followed by another synchronicity, followed by something truly uncanny or basically impossible, coupled with clear communication and presence. That is when you start taking a new look at things. One-off occurrences or “talking” with the spirit outside of structured practice or workings are generally the quickest ways to self-delusion, especially if you give great weight to the result. Over time and consistent practice with numerous spirits, you can begin to accurately discern their hand at play in things. You will recognize the pattern of blessed results and chance happenings that actually do line up with the greater workings you are engaged in. Patterns, and the ability to recognize them, will be the greatest tool in your arsenal in this regard. Again – the spirits will oblige. There is no need to manufacture results because of great desire. Be real. Be honest. Take what comes with a grain of salt and then allow the spirits to confound that expectation. They will not disappoint when you have made a true connection.

    PAA: In your experience, what is the most misunderstood aspect of working with non-physical intelligences?

    There are several misunderstandings that I could use a few lines to clear up. First and foremost, there is no “correct” spell to accomplish whatever you are seeking. There is no “correct” Demon, or Spirit, or God to call upon to accomplish it for you, either. Searching for such things is a complete derailment of what your practice should be about. The work is always going to be done by you. Whether or not you make true connection with a spirit who can help you achieve your goal in a more divine way is what you are trying for. If you have prepared properly and are ready to work when you make connection, you will likely receive a great deal of assistance. If you choose certain spirits and don’t have your life in order, or ask for things with implications you don’t quite understand, they might do something to you that will create the conditions that force you into action. And if you don’t listen and act when that occurs, you may find yourself in bad situations. You might get hurt. It will have been your fault. These are the dangers experienced workers mean when they warn neophytes and new initiates. Most of the spirits you will encounter aren’t evil. They are well beyond that kind of morality based within the human experience and understanding. But they are powerful. They are capable. They don’t grant wishes and they aren’t going to do the work for you. Speaking to Satanism specifically, supplication and devotion are not going to get you where you want to be. Sure, Satan will answer the call to those things, just as he will answer the call to all manner of rituals and workings. But to advance in your practice, you must accept that your life is your own. Your service is only as valuable as much as it serves you. Advancing yourself is the highest honor you can offer Satan. Allowing nothing to stand in your path, including your own practice, spirituality, and presumptions that come along with them, is the greatest form of Satanic supplication. Burning Satan Himself upon the pyre is a perfectly acceptable offering as long as it advances your own power and agenda. If it serves you. If it does not, then don’t do it. But that is the dynamic you must seek to establish for yourself. Lastly, magic is not linear, and Spirits communicate in experience as much as they do directly. The rituals you do often come to fruition before you do them, just as you’ve initiated the first steps. Spirits will confirm your suspicions through the world itself well before whispering secrets in your ear. Pay attention. The world is magic, and so are you.

    PAA: Over time, has your relationship to these forces become more structured, more intuitive, or something else entirely?

    I would have to say a combination of all three, actually. Over time I have established a practice wherein I make structured time for connection, communication, and commune, but the time spent within that structure is only a piece of the interaction. Very often you will learn lessons, gain insight, or find clues through intuition or “chance” happenings in your daily life. It is then a requisite to follow up on those intuitions through research, study, or whatever other mundane methods you use for your work. The mundane world should reflect and reinforce the intuition if it was in fact communication or messaging from other forces. Beyond that, it is actually shocking just how active these spirits can be in our lives, and while they may not trumpet their actions, an astute worker will be able to see their hand at work. And in those moments, the relationship can begin to take on that “something else entirely” energy.

    You see their guiding hand at work, doors open when they were previously closed, and other instances of favor can be received, and when you go back to find the same source, or open the same door, you are met with resistance once again. It is one of the lessons I have learned the hard way. Sometimes the spirits really are acting in your favor and if you do not seize the chance when it comes around, sometimes you won’t get another. I’ve become much more reactive when those moments arise. When I feel and see the blessings coming down, I double-down on whatever I am doing. If I was going to work for one hour, now it becomes three. If I was only going to do cursory research on a subject, it then becomes time for a deep dive. They insert themselves in moments of opportunity. I try not to let them slip away.

    Zoetia, Transformation, and Applied Magick

    PAA: In Ars Zoetia, you present a system that reframes how practitioners engage with demonic forces. What was the key insight that led you to develop this approach?

    I wish I could take credit for the way Ars Zoetia came about, but at its heart it was a received work based on a singular premise. When we began the process I was at a place in my practice wherein I was challenged with creating a great work rooted in both personal skill and productive spiritual connection. During a rare chance to connect in person with some friends (and co-authors) we came upon a simple, singular starting point: Goetia is inherently contrary to much of modern left hand path practice and belief. The ritual construct, the inferred power dynamics between spirit and worker, the very way spirits are perceived in nature and purpose. Almost all of it runs in direct contrast to the prevailing opinions and experiences of active workers today, particularly those of Satanic and Demonolatrous leanings. So, if Goetia runs contrary, what would a similarly grand system look like if it was more parallel or congruent with the beliefs of the workers performing it? How do you even begin designing such a system? We landed with the ritual construct itself, and instead of simply swapping tools or invocations, we aimed to invert the entire operation. Where spirits would be kept at bay, we would seek to become as close as possible. If the operation called for visible manifestation, we would turn our backs on the circle. That was the one insight, if you will, that began the entire process. Inverting the Goetic ritual process. The worker would become that which is worked, the spirit would become the wielder of the hammer, and it would be ourselves set within the triangle. There was much less emphasis put on visible manifestation and direct communication, and more of an active focus on intention and sound magical principles. We put together the key processes and assembled equipment lists.

    Martin McGreggor Invokes Samyaza

    Built furnaces and prepared the fuel. It was Walpurgisnacht 2022 when we performed the first Zoetic grand rite separately in our own respective parts of the country. Our plan was to perform the ritual, document what happened during and after, and then go from there. That is what we did, and after some of the most consistent and stunning displays of evocation and intuitive contact, as well as several months of reception and work that led in completely unexpected directions, we were left with Ars Zoetia.

    Regardless of whether you seek to influence your own life or the world as a whole, understanding that the power to do so is held within, and everything else is simply a means to access, will allow you to not only effect truly powerful magic but also be prepared to follow up with the mundane work and presence that results in real success.

    Martin McGreggor

    PAA: The idea of internalizing power rather than keeping it external runs through your work. How does that process change the practitioner over time?

    Great question! Ideally, the practitioner should be changed in all of the ways they have applied their magic towards. To tie this into one of your previous questions, focusing on the internalization of spiritual relationships and power dynamics is one of the most important mental shifts to make if you want your magic to be effective. Regardless of whether you seek to influence your own life or the world as a whole, understanding that the power to do so is held within, and everything else is simply a means to access, will allow you to not only effect truly powerful magic but also be prepared to follow up with the mundane work and presence that results in real success. When you stop focusing on the outward – the outward significance, the outward manifestation, the outward perception, and begin to focus on feeding and fueling your own spiritual power and magic, you will gain confidence not only in your own abilities but in the relationships and connections you have formed. The expectation of result will be removed from your magical workings and you can live your spirituality in a much more honest way.

    When the ultimate success or failure of any undertaking is squarely upon the practitioner’s shoulders, and the power to affect that result is within the practitioner’s own divine providence, the influence that can be reaped is magnified tenfold. Instead of spending hours in planning and research to find the correct spirit to achieve a goal, a fraction of that time can be spent identifying tools and connections to augment a worker’s own personal abilities. The focus shifts to the work, and the time spent working becomes time communing, with invisible hands touching everything you do. Through the internalization process you no longer look for supernatural results, and instead seek the natural consequence of becoming the person who receives that which you desire, and accomplishes that which you seek to achieve. But the muses do not create anything. They inspire. And inspiration without perspiration is naught but fanciful meditation. The most consequential result of internalizing magical and spiritual practices is that it shifts responsibility. With responsibility comes capability, and culpability. At least it should. This is the process that eliminates I Can’t from vocabularies. Magic is the process of making the impossible, possible. Once you unlock your own personal responsibility within an effective magical practice, anything truly becomes possible within you.

    PAA: Your work suggests that transformation should be reflected in lived experience, not just internal states. What kinds of changes did you begin to notice in your own life as your practice deepened?

    This is another great question, but it could also eat up pages. One of the biggest pitfalls I have seen, and experienced, is seeking a change in circumstance without being willing to accept a change in personal habit, belief, or attitude. Sometimes even more radical changes may be needed, depending on the magic being worked. And those that fight change while simultaneously seeking out the very spirits of transformation and transmutation often have the most adverse experiences. This is another reason why my practice has shifted so dramatically toward internalization. You must be willing to become the change you seek, even if a lion’s share of the influence behind that change is coming from spiritual forces. Seeking change in the fabric of reality while attempting to remain unchanged personally is simply a recipe for failed magic. It is like digging yourself in the sand and then wondering why the tide refuses to take you further into shore. I try to ride the waves, which should be the aim of any true practitioner, but you have to be willing to visit the places those waves are likely to take you. Over the course of my magical practice I have visited many shores, but in the context of this question, of deepening practice, a specific window of time would likely be most useful to examine. I’ll focus on the last five years, as it is a good window into what deepening practice can look like, and happens to coincide with the work that led to the release of Ars Zoetia.

    As my practice deepened and began to lead toward the uncovering of Zoetia and performing its original works, I made a major shift in my life and returned to formal education after an eighteen year hiatus. I attended an esteemed university after proving myself over an initial probationary period, and ultimately graduated summa cum laude with an aviation-focused science degree. During that same period of time I addressed and resolved multiple personal health issues that had plagued me since childhood, and were beginning to have a serious effect on my long-term health and survivability. It is my honest opinion that had I not been pushed into addressing these issues, specifically by the spiritual path I was walking at the time, I would not be alive to be writing this today. In the same vein, after building a company and brand for over seven years, I also made the decision to sell my interests and free myself from a venture that I was no longer passionate about. Instead, I now travel the country with my wife as a contractor, making more money and enjoying more freedom while essentially working for ourselves. I have visited all three coasts and worked in over eight states within the last eight months. Traveling the country and seeing the differences between regions is something that I have always wanted to do, and now I get paid to do it.

    Finally, I contributed to or co-wrote three books during the same period with associated presentations at numerous live events and annual gatherings. All of these accomplishments, all of these changes, were a direct result of the spiritual path I was walking at the time and the influence offered by the spirits I was working with. But none of it would have been possible if I had been unwilling to accept and follow-through on quite literally life-altering changes. If I had been blind or indifferent to the, sometimes very painful, lessons being imparted – that I had asked for, by the way – I would have found myself in a very different reality by the time this would be written. If I had made it here at all. In short: everything has changed. Nothing about my life is the same.

    Social Magick and Real-World Expression

    PAA: In The Social Magick Spellbook, you bring the focus into everyday life—presence, influence, and interaction. What made you feel this area needed more attention?

    The Social Magick spellbook was a very focused work for me. I really leaned into the World Domination Series with that one, and looked at the book as an opportunity to provide a multitude of spells and methods for direct action. Whereas most of my other works would probably be considered more procedural, Social Magick assumes you have done the previous work and are ready to apply actionable tools within a social setting. In that regard, when planning the structure for my contribution I spent a good deal of time identifying the areas within social interactions that hold the most opportunity to affect demonstrable changes in real outcomes. So to answer the question simply: those were the areas I identified within the social sphere with the most opportunity for effective targeted magic. They also just so happen to be areas where many people feel insecure or incapable. The understanding of both of those factors led me straight toward working with the Fallen. Not only would they help any worker surpass their own limitations and become capable of great social feats, but they also possess many of the tools to help a practitioner become adept and astute in any social circle. Calling upon the Grigori for influence and power in social settings is a great opportunity, but workers should always remember that such spirits are not bound by the kind of morality we are used to. When you call, they will come. When you ask, they will answer. Be sure you want them to. The Social Magick spellbook contains some truly challenging operations. They can take you to some dark places. Like any social interaction.

    PAA: How do you see the relationship between inner development and outward expression—does one naturally lead to the other, or do they require separate work?

    It will be difficult to provide a single answer to this one. I think it comes down to what kind of work the practitioner is doing and what their goals are. If they are trying to live a purely honest and authentic existence, I believe the relationship between the internal and external will be very reciprocal and obvious. What they do on the inside will be reflected on the outside, and vice versa. In this instance the work being done becomes cumulative, with the increased inner strength lending itself to the development of the physical and then increased physical strength making it easier to sustain a more rigorous spiritual practice. Unfortunately, we live in a world where living with pure honesty and authenticity will often lead to personal ruin, and so, rightly, many people present a less-than honest version of themselves to the world. We all protect ourselves by deciding what parts of ourselves we expose, and to whom. With this being the case, it is very possible and often necessary to do external work that isn’t necessarily fully internalized by the practitioner. There are several examples of this in the Social Magick spellbook.

    Workings that prove quite effective for specific short term social needs, but would be less than ideal long-term personality traits to internalize and integrate into the personality. Likewise, the personal development, shadow work, and occasional turmoil that occultists experience as an integral part of their path would often carry significant social consequences if they were broadcasted openly. Instead, we develop a mask that sustains our position within society while the shadows dance underneath. None of these situations are better, or more spiritually ‘correct’ than the others. They are simply different ways the internal and external interplay across the social landscape of our global civilization. The best answer I can probably give is that the two are absolutely connected and can have visible effect upon each other, but the astute and experienced worker can manipulate that relationship and control what, to an extent, they wear externally regardless of what is going on internally. It is also worth noting, though, that strengthening one will only have so much effect on the other. You cannot become externally powerful solely by becoming internally divine, and likewise, perfect outward beauty will not make the soul beautiful as well. Work must be done in either regard for there to be advancement, but advancement that is made can be reflected in both areas.

    PAA: For someone working seriously with your material, how should they expect their interaction with other people to change over time?

    This might be a bit of a trite answer, but I would hope that their interactions have changed in the ways that they have planned. It would be an ideal outcome for me if they had applied the tools at their disposal to identify what they want, how to achieve it, and then molded themselves into the person who does exactly that. If it requires that their interactions become transactional and mutually beneficial above all else, then that is perfect as long as they do so mindful of and ready to accept the consequences. If they determine that genuine connection and community are their greatest desires and they go about forging those relationships, I would find it just as acceptable as long as they confront the dangers of doing so honestly and appropriately. As long as there is intention followed by action, I can find no fault in how someone forms their social circles and interactions.

    The world is a diverse place and to exist within certain areas, drastically different social capabilities and knowledge may be required. But the main thing is that they are thoughtful in the creation of their world, and are not driven by desires, contended for their fate to be dictated to them, or worse, complicit in becoming a tool or vassal for more ambitious minds and agendas not their own. It is one thing to be happy without extravagance or even traditional success, but it is wholly another to lack the will and wherewithal to even take a meaningful part in one’s own existence. For me personally, after twenty years on this path, I would say that I have become more tempered but less flexible. I am more understanding but less forgiving. I value truth and falsehood equally, and challenge both reasonably. I try to be for, before being against, and do my best to inspire divinity in the works of others.

    Public Perception, Misunderstanding, and the Meaning of Satanism

    PAA: Satanism is one of those words that tends to produce an immediate reaction, often before any real understanding is present. In your experience, what do people most consistently misunderstand about it, and where do those misunderstandings come from?

    So, so many misconceptions and so little time. Most people, particularly those who are completely outside the occult and magical communities, have absolutely no clue what real Satanic practice entails. Satanism, for those people, has become a catch-all buzzword for anything that falls outside of any particular person’s narrow scope of moral, religious, and behavioral righteousness. It becomes much easier to rail against the supposed wickedness of Satanism than live up to the precepts of their own religion, especially when they include concepts like charity and selflessness. If I were to give a single source of most misunderstandings, it would be exactly that. A long historical tradition of other religions dictating what Satanism is from a place of moral separation and superiority. No need to verify their claims with proof, and no expectation of basis in reality. Just whatever degenerative claim they want to base a sermon around becomes Satanic devil-worship, and it is accepted without question.

    This is one of the main reasons I wrote Paths to Satan. With this kind of narrative fiction becoming the most prevalent image of Satanism in the country, I felt that it had to be formally challenged by someone from within the community itself. The next misconception is a direct result of this kind of historical theological world-building – Satanism is focused on death, sacrifices, suffering, and what would generally be considered “evil.” Putting aside the fact that a unified universal definition of evil has still yet to be achieved, the rest of the claim is simply factually incorrect. It is wholly a concoction of non-Satanists that our practices are centered around these concepts. If anything, a cursory look into a single Satanic source would confirm the exact opposite. Satanism is one of the most life affirming practices in the world, which includes the lives of animals. Most of the Satanists I know are true animal lovers, who value the relationships they have with animals and seek to learn from those connections as much as they do from Human circles. Stanton LaVey, grandson of Anton, actually shared a lot of great wisdom with me in regard to animals and Satanic philosophy. It informed a lot of my current views about Satanism, the natural world, and how we fit into it as a species.

    The last misconception I will touch on, because I could keep going for a while, is one that gets perpetuated by many within the community itself. The misconception that Satanism is not a religion, and that Satanists do not believe in a literal Satan. Like most spiritual concepts that gain a lot of traction, this is actually both true and false. Some Satanists believe exactly that. And others do believe in Satan, but not the literal interpretation of the Christian devil. That is one of the most difficult concepts for non-Satanists, and Christians in particular, to grasp because they rely so heavily upon a literal interpretation of Jesus and the events that are discussed in the bible. Most spiritual or theistic Satanists I know are accustomed to viewing the historical context that Satan is presented within, across cultures, without forming a spiritual perspective based around their interpretations. But, at the same time, some Satanist do adhere to those literal interpretations. And it isn’t my, or any other Satanists’, place to tell them that they are wrong. It just doesn’t need to be a part of my Satanism. This is at the heart of why the Satanists don’t believe in Satan misconception is so wrong. It attempts to generalize one of the most nuanced religions in the world. And yes, it is a religion, because a lot of Satanists treat it as one. But that doesn’t mean it is, or needs to be, organized or centralized. My Satanism is not going to be the same as any other Satanist on the planet, no matter how aligned our views or practices may be. This is exactly as it should be. For those who seek certainty in their “faith”, this is a completely alien and foreign concept. That is exactly as it should be, too.

    PAA: A lot of people associate Satanism with either empty provocation or something harmful, whereas your work is structured and practice-based. Has that gap between public perception and lived reality shaped how you present or teach your system?

    As far as my actual process and method of instruction, I would probably say no. The public image of Satanism is sort of a double-edged sword in that regard, I think. Because it is so closed off from the mainstream, I don’t see many complete novices come to me with the sort of misconceptions or biases that I discussed in the previous question. When they are ready to come sit in one of my classes or participate in a workshop, they are already past that point. So when I am teaching everyone is sort of on the same page already, at least enough to let me get through material without being bogged down in the public relations type issues. Now, if we are talking about reach, availability, and inclusivity within common spaces, I would have to say a resounding yes. The places where Satanism can take an open and enthusiastic part in society are few and far between, with most doors still being closed to us when it comes to gatherings or other public spaces. When we are welcomed, it is almost always conditionally and we become targets of opportunity for those looking to “protect their space.” The number of times I have heard conversations revolving around whether “a Satanist is needed” at an event would probably surprise you. Or it may not. Par for the course as far as I am concerned, at this point. Even doing business, hiring contractors, or getting Satanically themed items crafted and manufactured is still a huge boulder for Satanists to push up the hill when trying to open businesses or create their art. Like many things, it has gotten better over the last few years, but who knows what the future will hold.

    PAA: Do you think the term “Satanism” still serves a useful purpose for what you are doing, or has its cultural baggage become more of an obstacle than a clarification?

    This is a pretty hotly-debated issue within the community right now. There have been many iterations of Satanic leaders trying to put a new name to Satan, and it could even be argued that much of the Luciferian movement is in response to the community-driven attempt to distance themselves from the Satan label. Because, in their defense, much of what comes to mind when people talk about Satan does not reflect the lived spiritual experience of those who actually work with Him. In my opinion, however, we should never make decisions about our own spirituality based on what it means or says to those outside of the faith. It should not be a reflection of a desire to be accepted within a society that perhaps we should be adversarial towards.

    I certainly do not believe Satan to be the true, or even most accurate label, for the spirit that has been cast into that role by those who would seek to subjugate Humanity. But I do believe that they just may have chosen an incredibly accurate label for Him in regards to his relationship with them. At some point in the future, I can see a new name and identity being found for Satan, but we aren’t there yet.

    We must earn the right to change that name through influencing the world in a way that redefines His role within it. I believe Satan to truly be adversarial to the state of the world that Christianity, Judaism, and Islam have crafted over the last two thousand years. It has nothing to do with duality. Their mystics identified their greatest enemy early in the game, and it is Satan. This world that they have created is abhorrent to Him, as it should be to us. We should strive to change the world into something that reflects His influence upon it, and when we have done so, then maybe we can consider finding a new name for the same spirit who has been given a new role within the world. Until then, it is our duty to use that name, to carry that label, and do our utmost to become Satans ourselves.

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    PAA: In your view, what separates serious practice from theatrical rebellion or identity-based posturing within the space?

    Great question! Simple answer: a real connection with Satan. I don’t even care if you simply view Him as a literary and historical figure that you feel drawn to or associate with. As long as you are making a real effort to connect with that energy and allow it to influence your life. It doesn’t matter if you are steeped in occult ritual or simply reading books, looking at art, and creating your own existence in that light, as long as you are actively opening yourself up to that influence honestly – you are a real, serious Satanist to me. Because you are making it about you and your connection to what you see as Satan, instead of posturing for a reaction from an outward source. When you seek attention through rebellion, want to provoke reactions, or posture yourself in inauthentic ways, you are directing all of your effort towards someone or something else.

    This is actually very Christian when you look at it objectively. All energy and attention focused outward, on the congregation and on the acceptance (or rejection in this case) of God. Completely antithetical to real Satanic practice, which above all, should be self-focused and a pursuit of personal fulfilment. I would even extend that into actual Satanists who are meditating for hours, doing crazy rituals, and extending themselves beyond their capabilities in “service” to Satan. This is, once again, making the practice about something other than you. Serve yourself first. Make the decision based on you. Your suffering and servitude are not valuable commodities within Satanism. Personal power, ability, and resources will serve you and your Satanism much more. Do not seek to achieve these things through your spirituality as some sort of short cut to avoid hard work. Use your spirituality to strengthen yourself, obtain these things, and then apply them back into your spirituality to even greater effect.

    Experience, Teaching, and Perspective

    PAA: Through your work with Twisted Tree Abbey and your appearances on platforms like The Magister Dixit Podcast, you’ve engaged with both individuals and a wider audience. Has teaching changed your own understanding of the work?

    Absolutely. Not only teaching, but group work in general. Coming from someone who was a solitary practitioner for over a decade after having a bad experience with groups in the early days of my practice, I would now say that at least periodic intervals of intensive group work are integral to long term growth. Teaching in particular, though, has done a lot to positively influence my own techniques and practice. Much like the process that martial artists go through, after reaching a certain point it really is valuable to walk someone else through the same material. It forces you to revisit concepts you may otherwise have felt beneath you, and invariably, new lessons are learned from the now more-experienced perspective. In regards to magical practice, the confidence that can be gained through teaching cannot be overstated.

    Particularly those that come from solitary practices, group work and teaching can be a wonderful experience wherein they get to see just how much they really do know. For me personally, as someone who does a lot of experimental and originative magic, teaching allows me to expose material to a broader audience and further judge efficacy through the interactions I witness. There is no greater litmus test for something you are working on than trying to teach it to someone else. Beyond all of that, there is a true value in the different perspectives that teaching exposes you to.

    Seeing how the same material is filtered through another person’s understanding can really unlock new doors to your own. Seeing how your own material is filtered through those understandings is also worth its weight in gold as an author or creator, and sometimes can point towards real gaps or opportunities. In one instance I found that because people view some concepts so differently, such as divinity, that when I was using those words they were taking in completely different interpretations of what I was trying to share. It showed me that sometimes we are talking very different languages even though the concepts being discussed are the same, especially when bridging traditions with strangers.

    PAA: You’ve been practicing since the early 2000s. What is one belief or method you held strongly early on that you’ve since had to revise or abandon?

    I can give you two. First, the idea that Satanism is the correct religion and that everyone should and would be a Satanist if they understood the truth about it. I used to have a saying that said Christians are sheep that learned how to eat twigs, because they didn’t know what grass was. Implying that they had never been introduced to true spirituality (read: Satanism) and once they were, they would naturally choose it. Over time and experience I have learned that first, everyone should not be Satanists, and second, some people are just twig-eating sheep. It is what they want, what they deserve, and what they should be given. It is not my place as a Satanist to change their diet. But I also don’t have to supply them with twigs, or show my loved ones how wonderful twigs are to eat. The second thing I dropped over time was the belief that supplication and spiritual service are pathways towards success in the mundane world, particularly as a Satanist. A lot of Satanists will reach a point where they want to be of service. They want to devote themselves to the cause and start making their Satanism a full-time practice. I have seen and heard so many devotions asking for the means to do so. I have made them personally. The lesson I had to learn is that service is appreciated but not a contract for success. You have to do that.

    If you want to apply your success to your Satanic craft, after you have achieved it, that will be rewarded. Absolutely. But it will not be a means to your advancement in and of itself. You can Hail Satan until your voice breaks and your eyes bleed, you won’t get a penny for it unless you figure out a way to make it happen yourself. That is the truest gift of this path. We have connection. We have relationship. We also have responsibility, and the contrary has never been promised except by those that know Satan the least. It is really a throwback to the Abrahamic religions most of us hail from. All success and prosperity is supposed to flow from God in that system. We are not the same.

    PAA: Across your interviews, including Radio Wasteland, you tend to emphasize clarity over mystique. Why do you think so much of the occult space still leans toward obscurity rather than precision?

    There are a few reasons for this, I think. First and foremost, it is a hell of a lot easier to just sound mysterious and use nonsense words than try to make sense of what constitutes the modern magical age. It takes real study, meditation, and contemplation to come up with something coherent of your own on some of these topics, even an opinion, and so the time investment for the result doesn’t make sense to a lot of people. They have no true desire to understand the material and concepts, just to achieve the perception that they do. This ties into the second reason I think this happens: authority. One of the few opportunities to truly gain from within these communities is from the authority you can establish over others. These people are gaining authority through mystique and low-budget wonder rather than through knowledge. One can be gained much faster, but not sustained, which is why you see a revolving door of social media gurus and very few teachers and authors who can sustain themselves for years or decades within the space.

    PAA: Looking across everything you’ve developed so far, what aspect of your system still feels the most open-ended or evolving to you?

    I know you are probably directing the question towards my written works, but the most honest answer I can give is my personal practice. One of the hardest parts about being an author in this space is the fact that I am always still learning, still refining, and still discovering. Sometimes I cannot be as accessible, or active, or as comprehensive as I would like to be with some of my works, simply because my own spiritual practice can still be quite taxing in and of itself. It can be difficult for me to keep up with the progress and work of others, and write down my progress and compile it into digestible formats, and do the exploratory work to confirm results and what they mean, on top of everything else that comes with being an author, and a husband, and a dad, and… It is why it can be years between works from me. Sometimes I am just still in the middle of discovering and learning myself and need time to process before bringing the results to the world. Sometimes my altars are being torn down and rebuilt, new spirits are being contacted, and I am simply making my way through the work. When it comes to my written offerings though, Zoetia is an obvious choice. There will be so much work to uncover with that system it will keep me busy for a decade. But my work with the Grigori is still probably the most open ended and ready for evolution. Beyond the works in the Deification Magick and Social Magick spellbooks, I have developed a more comprehensive divinatory system using the Fallen Angels that still needs to be released, and I believe the work that comes from that system will be some of my most consequential. Ever.

    PAA: Thank you, Martin, for sharing so much with us – over 10K words, very much appreciated.


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  • Frances Billinghurst on Witchcraft, the Dark Goddess, and Returning to the Living Mysteries

    Frances Billinghurst on Witchcraft, the Dark Goddess, and Returning to the Living Mysteries

    Introduction

    Frances Billinghurst joins us for a conversation on witchcraft, devotion, the Dark Goddess, and the living nature of magical tradition.

    This interview moves beyond surface-level ideas of witchcraft and into the deeper questions of practice, responsibility, lineage, land, and transformation. We hope you enjoy and if you have questions or anything to share, please leave it in the comments. To learn more about Frances and her work, I have provided links below.

    About Frances:

    Frances Billinghurst is a writer, teacher, ritualist, and practitioner of contemporary witchcraft whose work explores magick, mythology, Goddess spirituality, devotional practice, and the mind-body-spirit connection.

    Her work is especially known for engaging with the Dark Goddess, Southern Hemisphere witchcraft, initiatory practice, and the relationship between magical tradition and the living land.

    Visit her blog here and see a detailed about page here.


    Foundations of a Magical Life

    PAA: You describe your work as rooted in magick, metaphysics, mythology, and the mind-body-spirit connection. Looking back over your path from your first magical circle in the 1990s to your current work, what has remained constant, and what have you had to seriously revise.

    My introduction to magic and witchcraft was through a course where foundational ritual practices were taught – these being the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram (LBRP), the Middle Pillar, as well as working with the elements. These continue today as foundational practices. The LBRP taught the importance of circle casting while being a ritual within its own self. The Middle Pillar was about understanding, sensing and working with energy. The elements brought awareness of being connected to the physical plane, i.e., nature, connection with the energetics of the land. They also taught other foundational practices such as visualisation, meditation and what is referred to in the Craft as “moving between the worlds”.

    Over the decades, these elements continue to by and large underpin my magical (and religious) practice, any changes that may have occurred have really been a deeper layering of them, more so to have techniques aligned with the energetics of the Southern Hemisphere whenever practicable ~ something that has set me at odds with respect to other practitioners (more so with magicians). However, I see this more as a layering or adaptation as opposed to being a “serious revisal”.

    When we look at our world today, one thing that is clear, again at least to me, is due to the rejection of the Goddess, the divine feminine, the Mother, this has translated into how women and girls are treated, as well as how we treat the earth.

    Frances Billinghurst

    PAA: Your work has moved through writing, ritual, teaching, healing, devotional practice, and wider conversations around the Goddess and contemporary witchcraft. How do you understand the relationship between these different forms of work? Are they separate streams for you, or expressions of one current?

    Similar current yet different approaches as the Buddha said, there are many ways to climb the mountain. Overall, I see these as threads that are interwoven in order to create the tapestry of how I see the world. In other words, to me, they are all interrelated. Contemporary witchcraft is a religion that includes the worship of the Goddess, the divine feminine. From the outset of the modern revival by Gerald Gardner, this is something extremely unique – some have even referred to contemporary witchcraft as being the first Western religion to focus on Goddess worship.

    How I work with deities as a whole is that I see them as living beings – they are not just mythological figures or archetypes. As such, establishing a relationship is an important aspect of this, and this is achieved through devotional work – i.e., setting up an altar, lighting candles, making offerings, chanting prayers or mantras, and getting yourself into an open space to receive guidance, insight, etc.

    When we look at our world today, one thing that is clear, again at least to me, is due to the rejection of the Goddess, the divine feminine, the Mother, this has translated into how women and girls are treated, as well as how we treat the earth. This void of seeing the feminine as sacred, the emphasis of it being weak, and where the masculine as being perceived as nothing more as the “conquering hero” and where everything is competition as there can only be one at the top (the patriarchal perception) has long been so damaging for us in the Western world (over 5,000 years of this separated mindset) and unfortunately a “perception” that has been forced upon other peoples around the world. We see today the differences between the indigenous approach, that is more matriarchal focused, where resources are shared, as opposed to the Western patriarchal mindset which ultimately is about greed and who has the most regardless of the methods used.

    This separation from the Mother is part of the healing that contemporary witchcraft, that working with the Goddess, the divine feminine, and even working with the true divine masculine energy is part of what I share.

    PAA: When someone encounters your work for the first time, what do you most want them to understand about your approach to witchcraft and the magical path?

    Everything is interconnected. It may not seem that way at first, however, it is very much like an onion, the more time you devote and work with even the foundational practices, you will begin to see the different layers beginning to form and how they interconnect with everything else.

    Nothing is separate. It is all interconnected. We do not operate in a bubble. At the end of the day everything relates back to energy. How that energy is shaped is entirely up to the individual, yet it still remains energy.

    Energy also essentially works on its own terms outside of human direction. It ebbs and flows with the pulsating rhythms of the universe. What we do on the earth plane, is attempt to manipulate and shape it in accordance to our own will and desire. And it can take time, effort and training (self or otherwise) and effort to develop the skills necessary to achieve and maintain this ability.

    Information is easier to be obtained but this appears to be a double edged sword as “witchcraft” has moved from being a specific set of beliefs and practices, to almost a “catch all” for manifesting and spellcrafting only.

    Frances Billinghurst

    Contemporary Witchcraft and the Loss of Depth

    PAA: In your reflections on contemporary witchcraft, you suggest that much of what is now depicted as witchcraft feels very different from what you first encountered in the 1990s. What do you think modern witchcraft has gained, and what has it lost?

    If what is depicted on social media is anything to go by, I do not really understand it, nor how it actually works. This is because it seems to be very much as a hodge podge of techniques grabbed from a myriad of other traditions and practices, and thrown together without any real understanding of what or even why they were used in the first place. I find this interesting considering in essence contemporary witchcraft can also be seen as a scavenger religion (including techniques etcs) from other traditions and practices, yet the difference is that there is reason and a deeper of understanding as to why Masonic influences for example have been included, and even then, how these are utilised within contemporary witchcraft may not necessarily reflect their original usage. This is different from merely grabbing something merely because part of its use you resonate with.

    Information is easier to be obtained but this appears to be a double edged sword as “witchcraft” has moved from being a specific set of beliefs and practices, to almost a “catch all” for manifesting and spellcrafting only.

    There is also a heavy outward focus – grabbing to change the external in hope that the internal may improve without understanding of the deeper esoteric teachings whereby the inner needs to be changed first – as the NLP starts, it is all about perception. Such work has been reduced to the illusional superficial instant fixes sold mostly by influencers as opposed to longer lasting and deeper personal change.

    PAA: You contrast magic that changes the personal microcosm with a more modern focus on external desires in the macrocosm. How would you explain that distinction to someone who thinks magic is mainly about manifestation, spell results, or getting what they want?

    If someone comes to me with an external manifesting attitude, the first question is why? Why do they want change? What would this change bring them – how would it enhance their lives? Then what are they prepared to do to bring about this change?

    Are they wanting something purely because everyone else has it and they feel like they are missing out – a case of FOMO? Or is there is deeper underlying reason that they have not thought about or acknowledged?

    Again, we do not live in a void and there are times that in order to get what we feel we are missing out on in our lives could actually result from something we are ignoring to address, to fix, admit that we do not have our shit together.

    The person also needs to consider how much effort are they going to put into creating this change. If they are after a quick fix solution, well, good luck to them. It is best they look elsewhere because that is not how I view, utilise, teach magic and witchcraft.

    PAA: In your work on contemporary witchcraft, there seems to be an argument that older foundations are not automatically obsolete simply because the modern world has changed. Which parts of traditional Craft training do you think modern seekers discard too quickly?

    These days people do not seem to be interested in doing the work, of waking the path that climbs the mountain. They simply want to be helicoptered to the top so that they can look at the view. Yet, what they fail to understand is that part of the deeper appreciation and understanding is through the climb.

    Modern seekers today seem to be in such a hurry and are armed with tick boxes. Again, everything has been reduced to virtually an app, an instant thing, a gathering of information without actual application to see if things actually work.

    There is also an increasing avoidance of self-responsibility, the projection that things are always happening to them, someone else’s fault. Again, the focus externally (macrocosm) as opposed to internally (microcosm) without the basic understanding that they are interconnected.

    PAA: You speak about dedication and devotion in relation to the neophyte. In practical terms, what does devotion look like before initiation, before certainty, and before dramatic mystical experience?

    How initiation affects a person varies and indeed is personal. It is something that only those who have undertaken the process will truly identify with. As Ray Buckland once mention, you can yell about the Mysteries from the rooftop. However, only those who have experience them will truly understand them.

    Contemporary witchcraft is experiential – you need to experience the rituals, the practices, etc in order to gain a proper understanding, and this can only be obtained within a circle of people who have been trained accordingly.

    PAA: A lot of people today want access to mysteries without lineage, structure, hierarchy, or obligation. Where do you draw the line between healthy individual practice and spiritual consumerism?

    As already mentioned, contemporary witchcraft is experiential – you need to experience the rituals, the practices, etc in order to gain a proper understanding, and this can only be obtained within a circle of people who have been trained accordingly. And for the most part in order to enter such a circle, you need to be initiated. End of story. If you do not want to follow that route then, even if you download a copy of Gardner’s Book of Shadows (which is on the internet) you are still not going to properly understand the practices or tradition. This is simply because what cannot be written about is the oral information, and the experience passed through the experience of being with someone who has undertaken the actual training in the manner of how it was initially meant to be delivered. Tapping into the egregore, the energetic consciousness that has been built up since the first circle.

    Again, a lot of what I see bandied about as “witchcraft” I am not really able to identify with or understand how because it does not into the perception of witchcraft that I have which has been shaped by my training and knowledge passed down through my lineage. I am not saying that it is not “witchcraft” – it is just not my interpretation of witchcraft and as such, I am not interested in it.

    Initiation, Lineage, and the Living Mysteries

    PAA: Temple of the Dark Moon weaves together Alexandrian witchcraft, ceremonial magic, Qabalah, and wider esoteric teachings. How do you prevent that kind of synthesis from becoming eclectic dilution rather than a coherent initiatory current?

    This comes down to experience and training. Some of these practices (threads) are already interwoven into the Alexandrian tradition of witchcraft, others are not. There is a misconception by non-initiates that contemporary witchcraft is “limiting”. However, my personal experience is that it is anything but. It does not prevent any initiate from exploring other traditions or magical/spiritual practices – instead, what it does is provide the initiate with an understanding og what is Craft and what is not.

    PAA: You have also written openly about questions around earlier lineage claims and later re-initiation into a direct Alexandrian line. That is an unusually honest thing to place in public. What did that process teach you about legitimacy, humility, and responsibility in initiatory witchcraft?

    Even to this day I do believe that despite the grey area in my initial initiation that it was bona fide – even if not being able to be proved. This is because it exposed me to or awoken something that resonated within me. It encouraged me to go deeper and in order to be able to one day be in a potion to pass on the deeper level of understanding to others however I felt that I need to clear up this grey area – for the benefit of others – so re-initiation was important to me.

    Again, there is a general misunderstanding of what initiation applies and where the actual focus is on (i.e., the current that flows from the source – which is the lineage). There are other lines in Australia, however, I became friends with Murray who happened to have actually been taught directly by Alex and Maxine although at different times even before I decided to re-initiate.

    PAA: Your teaching presents the Craft as a path of empowerment, but also of responsibility. What responsibilities does magical training place on a person that outsiders often underestimate?

    Even within a coven, the Craft teachings self-responsibility. That is where the true understanding of empowerment lies. The techniques taught within a contemporary witchcraft circle focus around three pillars that reflect back to self-empowerment – these being beauty, power and freedom – which are obtained through the worship of the Gods. What outsiders do not understand is that role that religion (or belief) plays because, especially in the Western world, Christianity is often perceived to be the benchmark for religion – however it is not.

    Witchcraft in the Southern Hemisphere

    PAA: Your work on the Southern Sabbats challenges the assumption that practitioners can simply import Northern Hemisphere seasonal symbolism. What changed in your own practice when you stopped translating the Wheel mechanically and began listening to the land itself?

    A simple answer is that it started to make more sense – yet Australia is very unique. The landmass is the same size as the USA and there are many micro-climates. Even the standard advice given by Northern Hemispheric people to “move things around six months” does not necessarily work.

    I see contemporary witchcraft is very earth centric: It centres around the magic of the earth, the ebbing and flowing of energy, the seasonal tides, the changing phases of the moon, etc. The more we take note of our environment (macrocosm), the deeper our understanding and personal connection. (microcosm). This is very much in alignment with the thought of many indigenous peoples. Our separation from the earth I believe has resulted in our deeper soul level restlessness and disconnection, even dissatisfaction for some with life.

    PAA: You point out that in the Southern Hemisphere the sun’s path, seasonal gateways, elemental placements, and even the appearance of the moon may need to be reconsidered. How much of ritual structure should be preserved for continuity, and how much should be adapted to place?

    The benefit of foundational training is that once that has been established, you can then modify, change things to fit in. It is like shifting to doing a ritual by rote, merely reciting words and copying actions, to when you start to gain a deeper awareness and understanding of the words you are speaking and why they were chosen in the first place – when they begin to come alive through the actions. You come to a place of awareness of why and how the energetics (vibration) of the spoken word call things into manifestation and are directed through the physical action.

    Or simply put, the more you understand energy, you can feel how it moves and weaves, and when you work with it, it simply feels “right”. This is because you are working with it on a deeper level as opposed to applying something on top of it and attempting to shape it (which could end up requiring a constant amount of energy that could be directed elseh). At the end of the day, like a stream or river, the energetic current is at its strongest when following its natural path (which if often returns to).

    PAA: Many occult traditions preserve forms from Europe or the Northern Hemisphere. At what point does fidelity to inherited form become disconnection from the actual land, sky, and body of the practitioner?

    Understanding over heritage, ancestral roots can deepen regardless of where you are – looking for similarities. Australian native trees can have a similar connections to northern European trees but not all identical. I have already felt like a stranger in a strange land. It is very much alive, so it demands our mutual respect. I can only assume that other parts of the world are equally the same – the earth is alive anywhere we go.

    Sitting and listening – not imposing one’s ancestral practice onto another nor attempting to image what really should be merged or adopted.

    Real shadow work is not about ticking boxes on what triggers you or acknowledging that you or someone else is projection – it is not about “fixing” alleged flaws either. It is about acceptance – that we are all flawed beings, and the realisation that there is “perfection within the imperfect”.

    Frances Billinghurst

    The Dark Goddess and Shadow Transformation

    PAA: You write that the Dark Goddess is connected with the unwanted, forgotten, ignored, and ashamed parts of the psyche, but you also warn against over-analysing suffering in a way that turns us into victims. How do you distinguish real shadow work from spiritualized self-absorption?

    Real shadow work is not about ticking boxes on what triggers you or acknowledging that you or someone else is projection – it is not about “fixing” alleged flaws either. It is about acceptance – that we are all flawed beings, and the realisation that there is “perfection within the imperfect”. This is why we are humans or have incarnated as humans, and is why we work with energetics.

    Our modern world however keeps telling us that we need “perfection”. Nature however is not “perfect” – yet it is because everything flows together. The only thing that is “perfect” is artificial, manmade. This striving for perfection can simply be reduced to a patriarchal ploy of attempting to control the last vestibule of the Mother, earth.

    PAA: Your Dark Goddess work includes figures such as Kali, Persephone, Hekate, Hel, Baba Yaga, Sekhmet, and Oya. When working across different cultures and mythic worlds, what principles help keep the work reverent rather than superficial?

    Education and Research. My approach is devotional so I try whenever I can to include as much authentic aspects as I can. Again, establishing a relationship with the deity and even asking them what they want from me – what is possible especially if I come from a different culture or even era to them.

    Simply ways of establishing a relationship – light a candle, making an offering (food, incense, etc) and sit and wait – allowing self to be open.

    PAA: In your Kali material, you speak about letting go of what no longer serves us, even offering the ego to the Terrible Mother. What do people usually misunderstand about fierce compassion, destruction, and spiritual freedom?

    Even within Hinduism today Kali is feared. She is still fierce and smashes rose-tinted glasses – she is not a “cool kid” for those who “self- proclaimed rebels”. She represents the wild, untameable, uncontrollable forces in the cosmos that are also necessary for they help to cleanse the unwanted to enable the new to come into existence. I like to use my garden as a metaphor, in order to create growth in the garden, we need to prune, rest, etc. Kali is the action, the clearing out, the pruning.

    She also brings awareness that the external change we may be seeking may very need to start with us, and she will often bring about that awareness extremely swiftly, before we have had time to change our minds.

    Goddess, Moon, Earth, and Sacred Relationship

    PAA: In your Return to the Mother work, you ask whether the rejection of the Divine Feminine from soul consciousness is connected to how we treat the Earth. What does “returning to the Mother” require beyond sentiment, aesthetics, or Goddess language?

    A reminder that wherever or whoever we are, we ae all birthed from the feminine energy – 5,000 years of patriarchy has not only shifted us from the feminine energy but also seen the rise of an extremely toxic stinted form of masculine energy. It is not the divine pure masculine either as patriarchy is only focused on control, those at the top who clamber over everything and everyone else. It has no soul, no conscious awareness and in fact it deflects from these, referring to these aspects as “weak” because they are more connected with the feminine energy.

    We are so out of balance with the earth, increasingly disconnected as I’ve mentioned – consider who is “mother”, what is mother to us? We refer to earth as “mother earth” however how we treat her as a disconnect, as a commodity, is a reflection of how women and girls are viewed – even in the western culture where a woman’s worth really is still based on who she marries and how many children she’s produced. This is far from being the holder of the sacred life force energy that flows through everything.

    Comes back to what I have mentioned, connecting back to the cycles of nature, the ebb and flow of things, the realisation that things happen to us, not as a punishment but because we are all part of the natural cycle even if we are out of balance.

    PAA: Across your work there is a repeated movement: from outer form to inner transformation, from inherited tradition to local land, from Goddess symbolism to lived relationship. What do you think is the next serious task for contemporary witchcraft if it is to mature rather than simply become more visible?

    Contemporary witchcraft has never been meant for the masses. It is a Mystery cult, a Mystery tradition after all, one that has been based on those of the past.

    If anything, though I would like people to return to the most conscious awareness of their actions – where every action has an equal and opposite reaction – basic law of physics. We do not live in a bubble – like a pebble being thrown into a pond, the ripples from our actions spread out and even may result in things and in ways that we have not even given thought to. We see so much of this in the world today – avoidance of responsibility.

    It is increasingly important that we need to take responsibility for our actions – to lead by example. To shine brighter amongst the darkness. Become that star from which we originated from.

    PAA: Many thanks for sharing your journey with us.

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  • Taylor Ellwood on the Evolution of Practical Magic

    Taylor Ellwood on the Evolution of Practical Magic

    Introduction

    In this interview we talk with Taylor Ellwood from MagicalExperiements.com. Many thanks to Taylor for sharing his path with us here at Perseus.

    From his website:

    ‘Taylor Ellwood is the original magical experimenter. He’s developed multiple systems of magic and written a number of cutting edge occult books, including Pop Culture Magick, Space/Time Magic, The Process of Magic, and Walking with Spirits. His work is grounded, innovative, and relentlessly practical, offering tools that bridge the gap between the seen and unseen.’

    Join his Substack here.


    Taylor Ellwood and Sheena Witter. Image courtesy of Magical Experiments

    Interview

    Early Practice and Formation

    PAA: You began practicing magic at sixteen after already wanting magic to be real through fantasy and imagination. When you first moved from reading or imagining magic into actual practice, what were the first exercises, rituals, or disciplines that gave you a sense that this was no longer theoretical?

    The first author I read, Ted Andrews had several books that proved to be formative for my early magical work: How to Meet and work with Spirits Guides and Enchantment of the Faerie Realm. Each of those books had a few exercises in them around seeing auras, and using your senses to detect the spirits. I really worked those exercises for the first year of my magical practice, working on expanding my extrasensory perceptions so I could sense and work with spirits. I also found the exercises for working with elemental spirits and archangels to be helpful, because it taught me a lot about how to connect with the spirit world. I think the most important lesson I learned was that the spirits weren’t on other planes of existence. There were and are in our world, waiting for us to recognize and work with them. Both of these books taught me the fundamentals of combining psychic senses with magical abilities to practice magic and to this day these practices still inform the foundation of my magical practice.

    PAA: Your early work brought together neo-shamanic and Hermetic practices. How did those two streams shape you differently, and what did blending them teach you about building a practice rather than simply inheriting one?

    Interestingly enough I came to both of these practices because of Ted Andrew’s works, because he combined them together. His work inspired me to continue researching neoshamanic techniques via Harner’s core shamanism practices and the Golden Dawn approach to ceremonial magic. I spent approximately the first 2-3 years of my magical practice learning these specific systems of practice and from the beginning I found ways to apply each practice to the other practice in order to complement the practices.

    The neo-shamanic techniques taught me a lot about visualization, spirit work, and working with nature and elemental forces. The hermetic practices taught me the formal structure of magical workings and helped me put together rituals. When I combined the practices together, I learned how to identify the gaps each system had and field in those gaps using the practices of the other system. For example I could apply the formal ritual structure of the golden dawn as an aesthetic practice that gave the visualizations a physical form of practice. I could apply the neoshamanic techniques of working with spirits to create collaborative relationships with spirits instead of using the formal coercion and command structure that was present in the Golden Dawn system.

    Combining these two systems early on taught me to critically examine and question how a given magical practice worked and find ways to improve on what was already there. It also formed the foundation of my later experimental work, particularly with blending non-occult disciplines with magical practices.

    Experimentation and Magical Method

    PAA: Many practitioners stay within one system for decades, but your path moved toward experimentation quite early. Was that because existing systems felt incomplete to you, or because experimentation itself was already part of your temperament?

    I’ve always been a naturally curious person, never satisfied with a given answer. This has been further sharpened by my time in academia and as a technical writer, where I was taught to find the gap in a given process or system and find a way to address it, attack it and otherwise come up with a solution to fill the gap.

    In my earliest years as a practitioner, I applied my curiosity to ask why magic was performed a specific way. I wanted to know if the magical practice could be improved on or streamlined or otherwise changed. I would experiment with different variations of a practice because I wanted to know what I could do with magic and what the limits of my own abilities were. This prompted me to take a given working apart and try out different ideas to see if I could get the same result or a better one.

    To this day, one of my primary motivations around magic is the evolution of magic as a practice. I enjoy stress testing a given system of magic and finding ways to improve it through the combination of unorthodox concepts and disciplines and the result has been the creation of more than a few systems of unique magical practices that I apply and teach to this day.

    PAA: You describe magic as something to test, refine, and learn from through both success and failure. When you are testing a magical idea, what are you actually paying attention to before, during, and after the working?

    I pay attention to my body, because that’s where the magic lands and is expressed first. I pay attention to the environment around me and how the quality of the light changes as well as the energy and experience.

    What I also focus on is the soundness of the idea. Does it make sense? Can I experience or discover a measurable change as a result of doing the magical work?

    When I do the magical working I ask myself what I would iterate differently the next time. I’ll make small changes and occasionally large ones. It’s never a one time working. I work the magical working until I’m satisfied that I’ve learned everything I want to learn from it and also refined and developed it to the point that it produces a consistent result and can be used as needed.

    PAA: In your experience, what separates a genuine magical experiment from simply improvising or mixing techniques together?

    Improvisation usually occurs in a moment as a response to a situation. It can be useful and important to improvise. Mixing techniques can also serve as an initial exploration of experimentation, because you are trying to discover how to take what works with one technique and complement another technique.

    Genuine experimentation incorporates both improvisation and mixing of techniques, but it also builds iteration into the process. When you do a magical working multiple times you get the opportunity to discover what really makes it work and create a consistency in the work that makes that magic reliable.

    Experimentation is also informed by your curiosity and studies. I’ve studied a number of non-occult disciplines over the years and then brought those disciplines into magical workings as a way to experiment with what magic can do. Think about your own interests outside of the occult and ask yourself – “How can I take this interest and apply it to magic?” There may not be an apparent answer but at some point inspiration will strike.

    One of my sayings is “Challenge what you know to discover what you can learn.” This really applies to everything in life, but if we apply it to magic what it means is that there is always room to discover and if you recognize this it will provide a sense of wonder and imagination that keeps you young at heart and supple in wisdom.

    Taylor Ellwood

    PAA: Have there been experiments that forced you to change your understanding of what magic can or cannot do?

    I would say every magical working ought to do that…it certainly has for me. I’m always learning something new from the magical work that I’m doing. It may be something very small but the point is that I’m always looking to change what I understand about magic.

    One of my sayings is “Challenge what you know to discover what you can learn.” This really applies to everything in life, but if we apply it to magic what it means is that there is always room to discover and if you recognize this it will provide a sense of wonder and imagination that keeps you young at heart and supple in wisdom.

    Process, Design, and Troubleshooting

    PAA: In The Process of Magic, you focus on the mechanics of magic, consistent results, troubleshooting, and getting results that last. What made you want to strip magic down to process and mechanics rather than present it mainly through ritual forms, symbolism, or tradition?

    No one else was doing it. Most books on magic stick to ritual forms, symbolism and tradition laden with esoteric terminology. That makes it hard to learn how magic works or what can be done with it. I saw this gap in the literature of magic and how its taught in general and I decided to write about it so magic could become more accessible. Even now, I observe that most of the occult articles, videos, classes, etc are still oriented around the mystery of the esoteric. It’s very romantic and sentimental, but it doesn’t actually help people do magic if your magic isn’t made accessible. That’s why I focus on the mechanics, consistent results, etc, because people want results more than they want the sentimental esoteric romanticism that so much of the occult is steeped in.

    PAA: You teach that practitioners can customize and design their own workings rather than rely on prescriptive spells. When designing a working, what are the most important decisions a magician has to make before any ritual action begins?

    First you need to define your result – both in terms of what you want and what you don’t want. This creates the parameters for the spell work you’ll do as well as the mundane actions you take. Once you have the parameters it’s important to decide what actions to take that will help you accomplish the result. Pick those actions and make sure you understand what you are doing. Then execute and let the magic happen.

    PAA: In Magic by Design and How to Troubleshoot your Magic, you place a lot of emphasis on improving workings that are not producing results. When a working fails or only partially succeeds, where do you usually begin looking for the problem?

    First I look within. Is there a part of me that feels resistance or is sabotaging the working. 9 times out 10 that will be the issue and it means that you aren’t fully aligned with the result you want to manifest. Something needs to change within you in order to align yourself to the result you want to manifest.

    If it’s not an internal issue, it’s an external variable that you either didn’t know about or didn’t factor into your magic. At that point add what you know about it into the magical work and see if the result improves.

    I look at results as indicators that inform you on whether your magic is on track or off track. They aren’t the end of the magical work, so much as they indicate whether magic is working or not…and to keep going.

    Troubleshooting teaches us a lot about the fundamentals of magic and how it works, because it gives us a way to look at a given working or spell and discover how all the pieces fit together.

    Pop Culture Magic and Correspondence

    PAA: In your Pop Culture Magic work, you show how fandom, modern mythology, pop culture spirits, social media, technology, and even role-playing games can become magical material. What first convinced you that pop culture could function as real magical substance rather than merely personal symbolism?

    I was pretty much convinced from the very beginning of my magical practice. As I started exploring the various systems of magic, a question I kept coming back to was whether these same systems would work if I were to swap tools, deities and other such things. Pop culture provided a natural experimenting ground in which to answer this question and what I discovered is that provided the magician understands what they are doing, there is a lot that can be swapped out of a given system that allows you to get viable results. Pop culture also is something we can relate to because it is contextual to our time and experience and this also enhances the efficacy of magic.

    PAA: When working with pop culture spirits or systems, how do you build depth and relationship over time so that the work becomes a genuine practice rather than a temporary fascination?

    The key word is time. If you’re going to work with a given pop culture then it requires the same commitment any magical practice calls for. Your pop culture magic will naturally evolve as you evolve or it will fall away if it becomes less relevant. Give it time and dedicated practice.

    PAA: You also write about matching pop culture mythology to traditional and new correspondences. How do you decide when to preserve older magical structures and when to let the pop culture material generate its own structure?

    A large part of that is context with the magical system you are working with. One of the most understated and misunderstood aspects of magic is the importance of developing your own correspondence system. The correspondences that you find in most books were never intended to be a one size fits all for magical practitioners. Correspondences should be developed from the perspective of your own experience and practice. When that occurs the correspondence system will be much more powerful because it is based on your experiential knowing of the material as opposed to using someone else’s correspondences. A correspondence is really a relational understanding that the given correspondences have corollaries that are relevant to the person’s magical practices and allows them to access specific knowledge and relationships through the correspondences.

    Space, Time, Identity, and Inner Alchemy

    PAA: Your Space/Time Magic work uses time, space, imagination, memory, dreams, retroactive magic, and identity to turn possibilities into results. How did your understanding of magic change when you began treating time and memory as active parts of the working rather than just background conditions?

    What fundamentally changed is that I recognized how much our experience of time and space shapes our collective experience and our conscious day to day life. Magic provides an alternative perspective that liberates us from the tyranny of clock time and space, and offers a way to conjure possibilities into existence. Working with time, space, memory and imagination as active components shows us that magic is really an ontological expression and experience of reality that changes as we change our respective identity. This allows us to move away from doing into being. Instead of trying to force reality conform to our will, we change our identity and as a result soften reality, so that seemingly improbable possibilities can be manifested into results.

    PAA: In Magical Identity, you argue that identity is central to effective practical magic. How does identity work change the magician’s relationship to results compared with simply doing a spell for an external outcome?

    When you change your identity, you are creating internal agreement with the result you want to manifest. If you only focus on the external circumstances, then you may get a result, but have it go away because your identity hasn’t fully accepted the result. Changing your identity creates an inherent buy-in to the new reality you are manifesting, making it possible for it to stick, because you’ve addressed any resistance or limiting beliefs that otherwise would sabotage the magical work and the desired result.

    PAA: Your Inner Alchemy work brings the body, cells, neurotransmitters, microbial life, and internal energy into magical practice. How did your body become a field of magical work, and how has that changed the way you understand spirits, embodiment, and transformation?

    When I was 20 I got tired of being depressed. I didn’t want to take the drugs to regulate my emotions because of the side effects. I did some research and developed a viable way of changing my neurochemistry and this became the foundation of the inner alchemical practices I use. As I continued experimenting I came to realize that the human body is a complex biological ecosystem with multiple life forms existing and I decided to start working with those life forms as spirits.

    This experience taught me that our own human experience and beingness is a universe all its own and it helped me recognize that the perception of a separate spirit world is just a perception and limiting one that prevents so many people from accessing their own true potential. The spirits don’t exist on a separate plan…they are here, waiting for us and our body is the portal that invites in the magic and the manifestation of possibilities into results.

    Spirit Work and Magical Entities

    PAA: In the Walking with Spirits series, you emphasise rapport, collaboration, co-equal relationships, experiential embodiment, and simplified invocation and evocation. What changed in your spirit work when you moved away from coercive or command-based approaches?

    I only briefly got into the coercive, command based work in my early years, mainly as a result of learning ceremonial magic. I quickly realized that this approach produced more negative results than beneficial and asked the question: what would happen if I made friends with the spirits? I had already taken this approach with nature and elemental spirits and I found that taking such an approach naturally created better results because I wasn’t trying to force the spirits to do something, but instead finding a way to create a mutual win that benefited all parties. I’ve never had any of the ill effects that so many other magicians have reported and what this really demonstrated is that questioning what we do and why we do is essential to making the magic our own and creating better results in the process.

    Many people create an entity with the paranoid expectation that the entity will turn on them. What they never recognize is that they have build that expectation into the entity. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy…

    Taylor Ellwood

    PAA: In Walking with Magical Entities, you discuss servitors, egregores, thought forms, fuel sources, programming, revision, and relationship. What have created entities taught you about responsibility and long-term magical maintenance?

    What you attend to matters and that includes what you create. Many people create an entity with the paranoid expectation that the entity will turn on them. What they never recognize is that they have build that expectation into the entity. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy, never really questioned because someone told them to expect that. As with anything else, the relationship you create is developed as a result of the curiosity or lack thereof that enters into the relationship. Curiosity is essential for contact. This also applies to your magical work outside of spirit work. Get curious about what you’ve done. At the time of this interview, I’ve been going through older classes I developed and it’s been useful for helping me stay curious about my own work, so I don’t take it for granted!

    Elemental Magic and Daily Practice

    PAA: Your elemental spirit work draws from Hermetic and Taoist models but also expands into elements such as gravity, magnetism, time, and space. What led you to modernise elemental magic in that way, and how has working with elemental spirits changed your practical understanding of the elements?

    Elemental magic has played such a pivotal role in my magical work. One of my earliest experiments involved exchanging life essence for elemental essence and that experienced has informed my approach to elemental work. I modernised elemental magic because it seemed clear that the original model was based on a classical understanding of the world, which modern science has evolved past. We know there are other elemental forces and so it made sense to work with the elements in that way. The modernisation has shown me that elemental magic is much more extensive than realized and that we need to stop treating it as a categorization of things and instead engage it as an active magical practice. Working with gravity, creativity and other elements has shown me how the elements are an expression of the way our human experience interacts with the spirits. Broadening our definition and experience of the elements through modernisation allows us to discover how those elements move in our lives.

    PAA: After decades of practice, writing, teaching, and experimentation, which parts of your daily or weekly magical practice remain non-negotiable?

    Daily meditation and martial arts is non-negotiable. I choose to stay fit in body and mind so that I can be at my best spiritually. I do a daily magical working called sphere of art which is part of the meditation process…the martial arts and qigong completes it.

    Looking Back and Closing

    PAA: Looking back across your books and systems, what has remained most consistent in your magical practice, and what have you most clearly changed your mind about?

    My curiosity and drive to evolve magic by combining it with non-occult disciplines has remained consistent over the years. I am always asking questions, exploring ideas, and developing new systems of magic. I haven’t really changed my mind about my various systems. I think what I’ve done is matured as a magician and a person and it makes me appreciate the rich nuance of my work as well as the continual evolution. I hopefully have many more years to continue experimenting and sharing my work.

    PAA: Lastly is there anything else you would like to share with the readers?

    First thank you for reading this interview and thank you to Perseus Academy for interviewing me. I really appreciate the opportunity to connect and share with you.

    If you’d like to learn more about my unique take on magic, I invite you to visit Magical Experiments and the Magical Experiments Substack where I share my writing and classes. I am continually innovating and creating new systems of magic.

    PAA: Many thanks for your time in answering our questions we greatly appreciate it.


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  • Lyam Thomas Christopher on High Magic, Inner Demons, Self-Initiation, and Spiritual Transformation

    Lyam Thomas Christopher on High Magic, Inner Demons, Self-Initiation, and Spiritual Transformation

    Introduction

    This is a transcript of a recent interview with Lyam Thomas Christopher. Both the video and the transcript are provided below.

    If you would like to learn more about Lyams work please check the following:

    Learn more about the work of Lyam Thomas Christopher on his Patreon.

    Also be sure to check his very informative YouTube channel here.


    Interview

    PAA: Hello everyone, and welcome to this new episode of Perseus Conversations. I am very excited today because we have someone who is well known in the magical community and on YouTube, and who is doing important work on subjects that constantly come up in magical communities: the real-life problems, internal challenges, and sometimes embarrassing difficulties that practitioners face. Today I am speaking with Lyam Thomas Christopher. Welcome.

    Lyam: Good evening to you and good morning to me.

    PAA: Thank you for joining us. As we were briefly saying before we went on air, I am really impressed with your YouTube channel. For anyone listening, definitely check the description box below, because you are going to see important subjects that we all face: the challenges, the internal challenges, and even the embarrassing challenges. I want to dive right in. First, I want to talk about your book, Kabbalah, Magic and the Great Work of Self-Transformation. This is something I have only recently discovered through the Perseus community, with people talking about it, the different grades, and what they are doing. For those who do not know, could you give a brief overview of what this book is about, what its goals are, and why you felt the need to write it?

    Lyam: The book is written as a dramatic way of introducing the Golden Dawn that actually works, as opposed to trying to go into the Golden Dawn book by Regardie, which is basically a large collection of Golden Dawn writings, rituals, and things like that. People look at the material and say, “What do I do with all this? I can’t even understand half of it.”

    Kabbalah, Magic and the Great Work of Self-Transformation is a means of exploring what is covered in the Golden Dawn material and experiencing it for yourself. By the time you get through the course, everything in the Golden Dawn book makes sense. In the process, you undergo a spiritual transformation, which is apparently what the original theurgists of the classical era and late antiquity were all about in the practice of high magic.

    One other thing about the book: it did not make any attempt to be highbrow necessarily. It was more of an attempt to really get into the dramatics of it. All the stuff that we think is really cool about magic, all the titillating things, matter because magic has a multilevel appeal. There is the highfalutin spiritual material, and then there are the external appearances of it: the dark imagery, mysterious symbols, and things like that.

    In order to get into the system, all of that is important. The goetic elements of the magic are important to the high magic. The book is essentially an effort to rescue all of the glamour from the glamour. In other words, all this stuff serves a purpose. You want to use it to stir the imagination because you are setting up a discipline that drills down through the bedrock of the ego and uncovers something soulful, something spiritual, to be discovered.

    The reason I wrote it was because that had not been done yet. It was the book I was looking for. You know the common complaint: if you do not find the book you are looking for, you have to write it.

    PAA: That is what has been communicated to me, and after looking at it as well, so many people look at the Golden Dawn and wonder how to access it. There are obviously the big books out there, but, as you say, much of the work is quite highbrow. For someone just coming to it, it can be very intellectual. You can end up reading and thinking, “Great, so what do I do now?” You spoke about spiritual transformation, and I have also been going through your YouTube channel over the last few days. One of the things I listened to today was about abstraction: moving away from the finer details of something and saying, “It is just this” or “It is just that.” So when we look at spiritual transformation, what does that actually look like for a practitioner of this system?

    Lyam: You have hit upon something very important. If you go into various traditions of spiritual transformation, Zen, mindfulness, transcendental meditation, and so on, these teachers tend to speak in abstractions.

    For example, if you have a recurring emotion that troubles you, they might say, “Deal with the emotion. What does the emotion feel like? How does it feel in your body?” One of the problems is that the very label of the emotion, let’s say jealousy, is an abstraction. The actual experience of jealousy is quite startling.

    At the core of the emotion is actually an image, or an imagistic scenario, which is essentially an unresolved duality. This is what we would call a spirit. This thing keeps resurfacing because it is trying to work out whatever duality or unresolved conflict it was originally enmeshed in.

    In the scheme of our cosmic evolution or biological evolution, we have come across many challenges and horrific situations that have embedded in us these difficult unresolved dualities. It is sort of like trauma. In the East they call these things samskaras. In the West, we can call them spirits, entities, or demons.

    We call them that because when they surface, they surface as imagistic scenarios or images. They come complete with horns, fangs, glowing eyes, claws, and things like that because they get associated and tangled up with traumatic imagery from our evolutionary past. They also appear as flash floods, storms, lightning strikes, explosions, and so on. These are things we have experienced in our ancestry, or so the theory goes, and they are embedded in cell memory.

    They haunt us and drive our behavior. You really cannot get at them until you get at the imagistic scenarios that keep surfacing. They are there, but very often we are unaware of them because we have developed a hostile relationship with imagination, or imagination has developed a hostile relationship with itself because of all the pain that is in it. So naturally it says, “That is not real. Forget about that. That is just a dream. It is not important.”

    In magic, we do not just deal with the emotion. We do not simply say, “How do you feel? Write about it.” We go into the feeling. What are the entities involved? What are they doing? How do they move? In the old grimoires, they say “move and appear,” because that is how spirits first manifest. There is movement, and then you can suddenly see them as a charging water buffalo, a wolf-like creature stalking you, an avalanche that is going to bury you, or a dark hole you are going to fall into.

    These images are not abstract. They are visceral, concrete, and scary. That is how the psyche works. Like it or not, you cannot escape the way the psyche works.

    PAA: So the transformation would be the working through of these things as they appear in your life, or as they become present in your life?

    Lyam: It is the acceptance of them and the assistance of them, so they can work out or work through whatever issues they have. In high magic, it is more an attitude of love or compassion for them, and it requires empathy.

    You look at this thing that is coming up and making a hell out of your life because it keeps taking over your behavior. Then you ask, “How has this thing evolved to function as it does?” Of course it would work that way. Of course it is trying to do that. This is empathy. This is real empathy.

    It is not primarily about being a good person and loving your neighbor, though that is fine. Primarily, it is the empathy we have for these unresolved complexes, these unresolved dualities that surface within us. They are very much alive. They are older than we are because they exist in the traumatic history of humanity and before that. They go all the way back to primordial single-cell organisms.

    The tendency to contract when something is poking at you is not just a human thing. It is a life thing. Even plants do it. That contraction is the primordial contraction we experience, and that is what the ego has latched onto. The ego is that compulsive contraction. You cannot seem to unclench anymore. You are constantly on guard, constantly hunting for the next fix, or constantly alert for dangers.

    To be very clear, when we say, “This is mere psychology,” we are dealing with the psyche of the universe, not just the psyche of each individual person. Who came up with the idea that the soul is inside your body? That is something modernity does to you in order to contain you, control you, and isolate you.

    Lyam Thomas Christopher

    PAA: So you are saying this is beyond us. It is like a shared pool for humanity. It is not simply that these things manifest only for each individual person?

    Lyam: To be very clear, when we say, “This is mere psychology,” we are dealing with the psyche of the universe, not just the psyche of each individual person. Who came up with the idea that the soul is inside your body? That is something modernity does to you in order to contain you, control you, and isolate you.

    The experience of the soul being trapped inside the body is certainly interesting, but that is an ego construct. It is part of our affliction, and this is what we examine. It does not mean that you have a soul inside your body necessarily. Soul permeates everything: anima mundi, the soul of the world.

    We need to rescue psychology from the psychologists.

    The real task is to turn the light around and look at the entity arising inside the magic circle: this thing you think you are, which is reacting to the thing out there and saying, “I need to get away from that. I need to push it away. I need to forget about it and never think about it again.” Or, “I need it so badly because I am incomplete without it.”

    Lyam Thomas Christopher

    PAA: That has completely transformed my understanding of the work within the book. As a baseline, it is not simply within you; it is within the universe. It is the inner plane, so to speak, not just inside you and all your fault because it is inside you. Students working with this brings me to something I mentioned off air about the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram. You said in one of your videos that life might get worse first when you do that practice. That shocked me, because I have done that practice before and thought, “Why am I doing this? What is happening?” Is that because you are bringing up this material?

    Lyam: Yes. It is funny because I did not make that up. My teachers in the Golden Dawn, at Ra-Hoor-Khuit Temple, mentioned it almost sidelong. They said the secret purpose of that ritual was to stir up all your stuff. We thought, “What? I thought I was banishing negativity from my life.” They said, “You are.”

    What happens is that you are banishing negativity with the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram every day, but what that does is bring a kind of magic circle around you. It reinforces the artificial self that the ego is occupying, creating, or becoming. It reinforces the dichotomy between “me inside here” and “the big bad universe out there.” It strengthens that by pushing the negativity out there.

    But the psyche works this way: the stuff you push out there gets puffed up in a more obvious manner. The stuff inside here that pretends to be you is also puffed up. This is why so many people doing magic become ego-inflated. They are puffing up the complexes inside the circle and outside the circle. They become increasingly paranoid and think they are being attacked psychically: “Psychic attack, psychic attack. Somebody sent a demon after me.” Or they think institutions are out to get them. Another one is, “You should be prepared for what is coming,” as though civilization is about to end.

    All of this is reinforced by the tendency to push those demons out into the world, where they can arise in more fearsome forms to confront you. The task is to confront them, but not to let them control you.

    Here is the really cool part. When we see something outside the magic circle bothering us, our tendency is to go fix it. “I need to fix that,” or “I need to run away from that.” We always have to do something in regard to it. That is karma. That is the error. There is nothing wrong with it, but when you only do that, you are reinforcing karma.

    “I need to get a new house. I need to get a new car. I need to get a new girlfriend. I need this. I need that. I need to run away from this.” Every time you respond to the external thing that way, you are reinforcing karma.

    The real task is to turn the light around and look at the entity arising inside the magic circle: this thing you think you are, which is reacting to the thing out there and saying, “I need to get away from that. I need to push it away. I need to forget about it and never think about it again.” Or, “I need it so badly because I am incomplete without it.”

    These narratives are not real. You begin to look at this thing and say, “What are you? I did not consent to this.” Yet for countless millennia, this thing has been arising and taking over our behavior in various biological forms. Most animals are almost completely dominated by the entities that keep arising and saying, “Go do this. Go do that.” These instincts, drives, and habitual behaviors take over.

    As humans, we have developed the ability to supervise these entities and empathize with them. If you cannot empathize with them, you are in trouble. Difficulty empathizing severely damages your ability to make progress with magic or spirituality.

    As the things inside the magic circle rise up, the demon inside the house with you is the one you need to scrutinize. You do this on the pages of your magical journal. As you work in the journal, you write about these things as they come up, especially how this thing is responding: “I have this other tendency that keeps coming up. What is that like?”

    That is training for the real work of Goetia that comes in the inner order, where you may eventually be conjuring spirits to visible appearance and doing work with them. In the outer order, you are doing a light version of that first. You are doing the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram every day, the Middle Pillar, and things like that, purifying yourself of these things and noticing yourself noticing them. Eventually you can do more intensive work.

    PAA: It seems like a process of identification. Without foreknowledge, people might think, “This is coming, this is coming,” but if you do not deal with these things and scrutinize your tendencies, they just keep taking over.

    Lyam: Right. If you do not deal with these things and scrutinize them, they will keep taking you over. In fact, they will inflate you. They will increase your sense of self-importance because now you are more easily irritated by inferior things outside your magic circle. You become an ass. That is how ceremonial magic works. It pushes out the complexes that are causing your suffering.

    PAA: So it is important to be within a system that has a process for dealing with this, rather than just doing the ritual and hoping for the best.

    Lyam: If you are going to conjure the demons, you need to confront them. If you do not have the courage to do that, do not do this work.

    PAA: You mentioned the magical diary. That seems really important. Do the magical diary and the ritual work basically work in tandem?

    Lyam: Yes, the magical diary is essential. You cannot just say, “I am observing these things and making mental notes.” No. When you write about them, you are not skipping any steps in the scrutinizing process.

    You are not only tacitly analyzing them; you are thoroughly analyzing them because the sentence structure and grammar of the words on the page require you to do that. You will not skip as many blind spots that you might otherwise gloss over if you allow the language to carry you through a complete process of narrative and analysis.

    It also helps tremendously to have a teacher who can guide you. The teacher might say, “Let me see some of your journal entries, and I will give you some pointers.”

    PAA: That brings us back to exactness versus abstraction. Do not dismiss what is coming up with abstractions. We are good at that: “It is just jealousy,” or “I am just depressed.”

    Lyam: Yes. What does depression look like? It can be startling. Or take a fear of heights. Some people’s fear of heights is like falling into a dark hole, being forgotten, and starving to death in darkness. Other people’s fear of heights is like tumbling end over end through space with no control. Mine is more like hitting the ground really hard. That is what I am afraid of.

    A psychologist might say, “You have acrophobia, a fear of heights. Here is a prescription.” But let us look at this thing. How does it manifest for you? What does the entity that is about to fall, falling, or clinging to the edge look like? What is the preciseness in it?

    PAA: In addition to the diary and the banishing ritual, is there any other kind of balancing work that people do within the process or the system you have?

    Lyam: When we bring up the idea of balance, it has always annoyed me because I ask, “What are we balancing, and where is the fulcrum?” Some people would put the fulcrum over here; other people would put it over there. What are we balancing?

    Ultimately, what happens in high magic, in the realm of spiritual transformation, is that the balance is between existing and not existing. This is the sweet spot. It is like the god Thoth as the enterer of the threshold. He is in manifestation and out of manifestation at the same time. He comes and goes, like the moon comes and goes.

    This delicate dance of only showing up when needed and disappearing when you are not needed: there is your true balance. What do we do with our lives? We constantly micromanage and meddle in things. Your life is mostly none of your business. Stay out of it. It does its thing. You occasionally show up to tweak things, and then you let go.

    So it is a balance between managing and letting go, meddling and disappearing. In The Lord of the Rings, Gandalf will show up, say a few words, poke a few people, and then go away. Then he comes back and sees whether they woke up and whether they are actually doing something.

    PAA: So really, follow the process. Let’s say a student is following this process, journaling, and having things grow in their life. Maybe they are not dealing with it as well as possible, or it is affecting their life a lot, and they are thinking, “I am not sure I can get through this.” What would your advice be to that student?

    Lyam: The big relief that eventually comes is this: I do not need to fix all this stuff. It needs my tender loving care and attention. It kind of fixes itself when it is allowed to air itself out in the imagination.

    If you do not deal with your karma on the level of Yetzirah, or the imagination, it eventually trickles down into your life and makes your external physical life hell. It starts beating you up in the physical world.

    The theory is that you can deal with this karma before it manifests physically. When you deal with it on that level, you can help it resolve itself so it no longer appears in your behavior and circumstances of life. No guarantees. Karma is everywhere. It is everything. But you can head off some of the really unpleasant stuff that is trying to resolve itself.

    It is painful to think that these things are trying to come out so they can see for themselves that they do not quite work the way they want to. In order to do that, they are going to be pathological first on the level of imagination, in terms of scary dreams, dreams of walking around in the park naked, or other uncomfortable dreams. If you do not deal with them on that level, they will manifest in your physical life.

    When people are suffering a lot in their physical circumstances, we can theorize that they do not know how to deal with it on the level of imagination. This is not necessarily true, and it is not their fault. They may not have the executive function that says, “These images are arising. They need help to work themselves out before they become physical.” Who would know to do that? You have to have someone teach you.

    PAA: Let’s move on to something that came from the community. People were talking about the book and things you had said, and a question came through about qigong, internal energy, and why someone might be told to practice this in addition to the work of the book. What differences, if any, are there between the Qabalistic Cross or the Middle Pillar and doing some form of standing qigong? What is one doing, and what is the other doing?

    Lyam: In most cases, when a teacher gives you some work to do with the energy body, or something ritualistic like this, you just do it. You will notice your tendency to want to use these things to control your energy: “I want more energy. Give me energy.” You are trying to get things out of it.

    The teacher says, “No, do as I say,” because what you are primarily doing is noticing what the energy does out of habit.

    I love this idea from biology, though it is not really new: the morphogenetic field or morphic resonance. We inhabit an energy field that ensouls, invigorates, or animates all life in the biosphere, or maybe in the universe. This energy field becomes concentrated in us, and it has habits within it. There are recurring patterns, and these recurring patterns can cause many problems. These recurring patterns are semi-autonomous entities, as we might say in psychoanalysis. They are demons or creatures, often much older than we are, because they persist in the human race, in animals, in plants, and everywhere.

    They go through patterns where they are stuck and keep beating themselves up because they are trying to accomplish something. They persist because they occasionally work. Most of the time they do not work, but when they occasionally work, that is enough for them to keep going.

    As these energy flows do their habitual things, cramped over here and gushing too much over there, we begin to notice them. The primary thing happening when we are working with ritualistic energy, qigong-type energy, Kundalini work, or breath work is that we are noticing how this energy field exists within the body.

    We tend not to believe it is there. Even a Zen teacher might say, “Notice the emotion in your body. Where does it manifest? As a cramp?” People think it is in the body, in the musculature or fascia. But no: it is in the imagination, or the imagination of the universe, or the soul of the world, which is being concentrated. You are now dealing with the eruption of some habitual tendency that is trying to discover what it really is. It keeps coming out so there is an opportunity to deal with it.

    The main thing that will eventually collapse is the habitual contraction of imagination into ego. Primarily, what a teacher is working on, like it or not, is destroying you. Eventually, that habitual contraction into a sense of self you think is you will collapse, which frees a tremendous amount of energy.

    Normally what happens is that it happens to you, it is catastrophic, and then you recover. If you already have a lot of experience, it is not a big deal. You think, “What was that? I disappeared for a second.” Then you come back. The ego reconstitutes again, and the energy pattern says, “I am back again.” But this thing that is “me” is like a sock puppet. You are crammed up in your head again as a control-tower entity looking out through your eyes. Yet this is not real. It is not what you thought you were.

    Problems still resurface, but every time one of these little behavioral eccentricities comes up, you see how it works. You gain an instant understanding that it is an eruption of a habitual energy pattern. This is when you begin to see how these things unfold.

    The primary goal, whether it is ritual, qigong, chakra work, Kundalini, or breath work, is to discover that it is not simply in your fascia, muscles, hormones, or neurotransmitters. All of these are manifestations of habitual energy patterns trapped in reactive patterns. Eventually, you begin to see them. They do not liberate right away. You begin to notice them as they are stuck, and it can hurt like hell to notice them. Before, ignorance was bliss. Now you see how stuck you are.

    Another thing you see is that the way you are trying to feel better does not work. You see that no matter what you do, in all those habitual ways of striving to fix this or fix that, you are not going to feel better. When you see that, it is as though someone in the family has died. When someone dies, you think, “What is the point of all this? We are going to die anyway.” The same feeling comes up: no matter what I do, it is pointless. This thing thinks it is going to feel better by doing this or that, but it never works. It only works for a little while, and then the suffering comes back.

    That is disheartening. It is called the dark night of the soul. You see that nothing you do is going to make you feel permanently better unless you turn the light around and look at the thing that is compulsively trying to feel better all the time.

    Then you see: this is what is going on. This thing is trying to feel better all the time. First of all, is there anything wrong with it to begin with? How did it get the idea that something is wrong? This idea that something is wrong is a driving force, a mechanism that keeps us controlling, freaking out, dominating the planet, and killing other life forms so we can live. It is the way karma works, and it is flying blind.

    When you notice this thing, you see, “This is not what I am. This is just stuff going on.” Eventually you begin to wake up because this idea of “me inside here” and “things to fix out there” is not real. It is a dream. You do not wake up from the dream; you wake up to the dream. You still see all the dream forms that the nervous system is creating: “That is a bad guy. That is a good guy. Of course, I am the good guy.” But none of that is inherently real, and yet we still wink at it.

    That is why so many magicians sleep with one eye open. One eye is turned inside into the spiritual world, where they can see that none of this is actually happening. The other eye is turned outside, playing along with the phantoms the nervous system is creating so it can perpetuate itself.

    PAA: That is not the answer I was expecting, but it is an excellent answer. So whether we are doing the Qabalistic Cross or the Middle Pillar, even though they may come at this from a particular perspective or give particular experiences, the endpoint is identification with reality.

    Lyam: Yes. Can you exert energy fields and heal people? Yes, it is possible. But what is involved might scare the hell out of you because it involves deep empathy for, and taking on, the energy pattern of the other person. You can see it because you understand it, and then you demonstrate in front of them that you can come out of it. Maybe they will harmonize with you coming out of it. That is terrifying because you have to actually face what they are facing. That is a kind of healing.

    PAA: Let’s move on to three subjects in one: lodge, lineage, and solitary work. I have seen a few of your videos on these subjects. First, let’s look at lineage. There is this idea of, “My teacher is this person, therefore…” Could you speak to that? Also, is there a difference in what someone can achieve through solitary work versus lodge work? There are many views on this. If someone is in a place where they cannot access anything other than your book, can they develop in the same way?

    Lyam: First of all, it is conceivably possible that you can become enlightened just by reading. It is very unlikely, and people say, “You cannot get it from a book.” But if you really know how to read, like a theorist reads, you are going through all kinds of horrific transformations as you read. We know this because we read literature and think, “I cannot believe this. I am tearing up. I am getting chills.”

    The ability to do that can spiritually transform you. It is called catharsis. The ability to do that happens on your own while you are reading literature, watching a movie, or better yet, watching a live play. These things happen whether we like it or not. Life unfolds that way.

    With magic, art, or drama, we turn up the volume on that. We intensify the catharsis process, purification, and self-empowerment. You realize what you really are and become more authentic.

    I came into the work trying to initiate myself, and I was making progress. Then I encountered Ra-Hoor-Khuit Temple and Laura York, who was my teacher. I benefited tremendously from just having a few words with her and hanging out on occasion. We did the 0=0 initiation ritual, which was wonderful, but most of the juicy stuff I got was from being with the adepts of Ra-Hoor-Khuit Temple, especially her.

    That is when I realized how lineage works. I have noticed that people doing the Kabbalah, Magic work make progress and their lives change. Then they meet with me online and have a conversation like this, and everything suddenly changes for them. They go after it more seriously. They say, “I am going to start over. Now I know what is going on. Now I know what is happening.”

    There is nothing special about me, but somehow that has carried forward. I am paying it forward. I got it from Laura, and now I am fortunate enough to have been activated or initiated.

    To be initiated is to rise to a new level of activity and function at that level. It is a higher level or deeper level, whatever resonates. You cannot go back because you now see what is possible for yourself, and you have to do this. Once you are in, you cannot undo it anymore. It is done.

    If you try to back out, you will suffer horribly because you are trying to live a life that you know will not make you happy in the way everyone else is doing. Now you can see through it, but you are still trying to do it. You cannot do that anymore. It is no longer your game. You can play it and have fun with it, but it is not something you ultimately subscribe to.

    PAA: The last part of that would be this: when it comes to the outer and inner order, from the bookwork, this takes you up to the entrance door. Is that correct?

    Lyam: To the portal, right. To knocking on the door and hoping it opens, and then going into Tiphareth and being happy forever.

    The real transition from the outer order to the inner order involves being able to work magic from the inside. Let’s say you get into Goetia and you are conjuring demons so they will go do things for you. That is a manner of working with spirits in which you take their existence at face value. You do not really know what they are. You say, “They are out there, and if I conjure them and pretend to be the archangel Michael, they will react, cower, and go do things.”

    That is usually the outer-order perspective. As we go through the outer-order process, we realize that is not real. Those are fake forms of power, the kinds of power tyrants wield: coercion and pecking-order authority.

    True authority involves penetrating insight into what these spirits are as karmic formations desperately trying to work themselves out. People are collections of these entities, and you can walk around in the world seeing that. Then you are on the inside. You are operating at the level of the soul, and you see how the soul of the world is erupting into manifestation, attempting to work out its dramas.

    Working from the inside means that, yes, you may still conjure spirits and demons and appear to get benefits, as though they are doing your bidding. But that is not what is happening. You are helping them work out their unresolved dualities. These spirits or semi-autonomous complexes transform and assume forms that are more helpful, mainly like watchdogs. Instead of taking you over and making you do things, they say, “Look out.” Or they dissolve entirely and never bother you again.

    That is the process. In the process, you gain an extraordinary way of living, which for you is quite ordinary because you touch down on the mind the way the mind actually is, not the mind as it has been forced into this role or that role.

    We think all these roles we compulsively play are reality. That is a dream state. When you come out of that, you see that being free of these roles, entities, and scenarios compelling you is the reality. That is the mind the way it actually is. It is kind of nice.

    You are not immune to these things, but as they come up, you are aware of them. They will not necessarily take you over and force you to be an actor in their drama. They will still act themselves out on the level of imagination, where you can help them realize what they are or what they are trying to do.

    They love that. At first, they may say, “What are you doing? You have not noticed me for a million years.” Then they settle in and say, “This is really nice. I am going to serve you as an instinct that is no longer going to grab hold of you and make you do things. I am going to pipe down now.”

    That happens all around you. You see these things everywhere. It is not just, “I am getting control of my behavior.” It happens with the people around you as well. They get magnetized by you, or catalyzed, whatever you want to call that.

    PAA: Could we say that this links to authenticity? The authenticity of your practice in what could be called the outer order: as you develop, you transition inward without necessarily needing entrance into another structure. Your own evolution takes you into that state.

    Lyam: Let’s backtrack for a second because I want to deal with the idea of group ritual. People think, “I need to join a group, and the group ritual work is going to carry me through.” That is all fine, but primarily this Hermetic work is self-initiation. Even if you are in a lodge, it is your daily work that is going to do the work for you.

    When you bring your A-game to the group meetings or the lodge, what you bring is yourself as you are in your current state of personal individual transformation. Here I am. People are learning from you, you are learning from them, and they are noticing the stuff you are stirring up, which may be problematic for you and for them.

    It is not necessarily easy. In magical lodges, the work will push out demons and inflate egos. That is how it works. The teacher’s job is to help people deal with that so things settle down and people do the work on the level of imagination instead of letting it come out into the world and beat everyone up.

    You can do ritual in groups, and that is fine. But primarily, the work is by yourself: doing your magical journal, doing your daily ritual, and doing whatever your teacher prescribes.

    PAA: That is really good to hear. It shows how tough entering one of these things can be.

    Lyam: Especially if you are an addictive type of personality, group work can help with relying on alcohol, pornography, or things like that. When you reach for things that are cheap and easy, it becomes addiction. What the psyche really wants is to be challenged.

    When you enter a social group, it is automatically challenging. It is always difficult. There is always a little bit of, “What is going on here?” That is enough to make addiction unnecessary. You are not reaching for that cheap fix anymore because you have a genuinely challenging and engaging situation. That is much more worthwhile than finding a cheap, easy feel-good.

    PAA: I think you have covered authenticity indirectly, but when I saw your material on that, it really struck me. Maybe this is a reflection of me, but I thought, “Yes, that is very important.” Personally, I feel I want my outer to reflect my inner, and if my inner is pretending to be my outer, I feel uncomfortable.

    Lyam: You are a practitioner. I have just added you as a practitioner of magic because if you are doing magic, authenticity becomes a huge issue for a long time.

    Eventually it is not such a big deal. You run into people and they say, “Have a nice day,” and they do not really mean it. It is all right. Do not freak out. People ask, “How are you?” and they do not really mean it. That is fine. They are starting a conversation.

    Authenticity is paradoxical because, from my perspective, you realize there is no “you.” You have all these entities reacting to things outside the magic circle, and each of them is inviting you to identify with it: “This is who you really are. You exist to fight injustice. Let’s go beat up injustice.” But the real challenge is not to identify with the compulsion to become this role-playing thing.

    When you realize that none of these entities inviting you to become something are inherently real, then you see there is not really any “me.” But then something curious happens. You notice that the way these entities come out, and the way you play along with them, becomes emblematic of who you really are. It is your own style. You cannot necessarily put a finger on it, but there is the authenticity.

    It is like what Oscar Wilde said. This is not a direct quote, but he said there is nothing more artificial than trying to be yourself. The manner in which you wear your different masks tells me who you really are. The manner in which you handle all these entities as they come up, playing along with some and letting others go, is your style. That is your authenticity.

    Whatever that karmic pattern is, it is probably going to continue for a very long time, long after your body is gone, in that wave pattern or whatever it is. I do not know whether that is true, but it is a beautiful idea.

    PAA: Thank you for answering that. That was one of the questions I really wanted to cover. I have many others, but I am drawn to ask this: in your own practice, was there a point where you were half in and half out, asking, “Is this real? What is real?” Was there an experience where you felt, “Okay, this is something I need to commit to and go all in”? If you are able to share it, what was that?

    Lyam: I mentioned this in the book. I got into magic by pursuing astral projection, which I had some results with. The book was by Ophiel, The Art and Practice of Astral Projection. It is a fantastic book, especially for his writing style. He mentioned the Golden Dawn and the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, and that brought me into Golden Dawn work.

    I started doing the Lesser Banishing Ritual of the Pentagram, and after about a week or two, I felt different. I felt good, but not in the ordinary way. It was more like the ego beginning to think, “I am awesome, and all that stuff out there is just material dross.” That started to happen, but I realized something was going on. This was real. Something was happening.

    Astral projection itself was not that big a deal. It was a lucid-dreaming type of thing.

    PAA: I am surprised, because I would have thought that even a clear lucid experience, or a real astral projection, would be quite powerful.

    Lyam: It was not remote viewing. It was simply being awake while dreaming, aware and able to fly and explore. Most of us have experienced that before, so we know it is not that big a deal, though it is nice to be able to do it consciously.

    But realizing that waving your hands in the air and chanting names actually does something like psychic surgery made me think, “Oh my God, this is real.” From that point, I pursued it seriously and eventually discovered Ra-Hoor-Khuit Temple and the Golden Dawn.

    Another experience happened when I was in Zelator. It was my first enlightenment experience, at the level you could say of Assiah, the world of action or material world. I was living in an apartment that had no washroom, so I had to go to the community washroom. I was walking across the lawn and happened to notice that I was the earth arisen in this form, looking at itself.

    Then I entered the washroom and thought, “What was that?” I almost missed it. These things are always there. I almost did not see it. That was real. I began to notice that the ego construct is inherently unreal. That was probably the most profound moment out of all the work, even though it was so ordinary and subtle. It had the biggest impact.

    Eventually, in the same grade, or perhaps Theoricus, I do not remember anymore, the ego collapsed. I had a letting-go attack. The ego started to collapse, but I was able to hold on. It was beginning to crumble, and I thought I was dying. There were hallucinations involved. I write about this on the Forbidden Realms Patreon site.

    It was alarming. I contacted my teachers at the time, and they were all on a camping trip, so I had to wait several days for them to respond. When my teacher responded, she said, “Yes, of course. Next time that happens, just let go. Discover something new. It is all right.” I thought, “What do you mean? I had dragon voices growling into my ears.” I did not know what was going on.

    Now I understand it more. I also had experiences of being attacked by teeth, fangs, wolf-like creatures, and maybe snakes. Sometimes I would touch an object in the environment and get an electric shock. These are evolutionary traumas being pushed out into hallucinatory experiences.

    It is funny to call them hallucinations because that is an abstraction used to dismiss them. They were tangible and shockingly real, sort of like PTSD for a moment. They did not ruin my life, but I was noticing them. I told my teachers about it, and Laura said, “Good. Very good. You are being attacked by entities. Very good.”

    PAA: That was the point where you thought, “Okay, I am absolutely all in.” You also mentioned Patreon, so I would like to cover that. Would you let us know about the Patreon and anything else you have going on: activities for students or people interested in your work? All of that will be put in the description box below.

    Lyam: Speaking of authenticity, I just quit my day job, so this is what I am doing now. Please support me on Patreon.

    On the Patreon site, the idea is that being able to contact somebody, even through the computer, and work with them live or through messaging, is often enough to allow the lineage thing to work. I have seen this happening on the internet, especially on YouTube, and I thought, “This can work.” That is why I started doing it. You can have tremendous reach and cause a lot of trouble online.

    On Patreon, people can direct message me, and every other day I answer messages. We go back and forth. Some people are doing the work in my book, trying to master Golden Dawn magic. Others are doing enlightenment practices to try to have a spiritual experience. That is fine. Whatever you are doing, there is also biohacking, which is cool because biohacking is pretty much what sorcerers used to do anyway. They called it magic back then, and now we are trying to label it something else.

    Biohacking includes breath techniques, exposing yourself to cold and heat, making sure you get enough ultraviolet light, making sure you get enough red light, and making sure you do not get blue light at night. These biohacks can be astonishingly effective, especially blocking blue light at night. I cannot emphasize that enough. People suffer horribly from brain fog, and it can simply be because there is not enough melatonin while they are sleeping. They are not exposed to nighttime anymore. They are constantly immersed in LED or fluorescent blue light, which tells the brain, “It is daytime.”

    You can join the Patreon site. It is easy to find. You can look for Lyam Christopher. It is called Forbidden Realms, because these things really are forbidden. You are getting into things that undermine the ego’s narrative of civilization.

    That is why magic has such a dark reputation. The karmic patterns that created civilization are based on suffering, stratification of classes, rampant capitalism, and things like that. These are karmic processes demanding that we continue to participate in them. I do not want to get political about it, but freeing yourself from these does not mean going out, radicalizing, changing the world, and becoming president. Forget that. It means being aware of them and becoming more amused as you notice them happening all around you. That can be really important.

    There are articles on the Patreon site. I put YouTube videos there as well, though those are free on YouTube. There are enlightenment practices. If you do not want to do the Golden Dawn curriculum, you can do visualizations, energy work, and things like that as an attempt to become enlightened.

    There is only one tier right now. I will probably put guided meditations on there for a second tier. Right now, it is only $5 a month. There is no second tier yet, but there probably will be.

    PAA: For that kind of tier, to get direct access to someone with this kind of experience is a no-brainer.

    Lyam: I do want to go to Boleskine House. If you know what that is, it is where Aleister Crowley supposedly did the Abramelin ceremony. Not that I am a follower of Aleister Crowley necessarily, but I do think he is fascinating. I would like to travel to Scotland and go to Boleskine if I get enough supporters to pay for the trip. Then I could be that internet celebrity walking around Boleskine House with my phone saying, “Here I am in front of the most infamous house in history.” That would be great.

    PAA: That would be a lot of fun. It is big news that you have given up your day job.

    Lyam: Four or five months ago, yes.

    PAA: Fair play. It is a big step.

    Lyam: I was a learning specialist, or I still am a learning specialist: twenty years of experience helping people study, read, and write at the college level.

    PAA: Thank you for being on Perseus. I wish you all the luck in the world with the new Patreon. In any way that we can work together or help each other with Perseus, I am happy to do that. I have really enjoyed listening to your answers. Now that I have discovered your YouTube channel, I will be going through it one by one. There is a lot to go through.

    Lyam: I am not sure how that happened. I started it a couple of years ago, and it just kept growing.

    PAA: It is bizarre that I had not seen it before, but thanks to people in the Perseus community, they were mentioning people doing the work of your book. I thought, “Who is this? Tell me more.” Then I saw your work and thought, “Let’s do an interview. This has to happen.” Thank you so much for answering all these questions. I had so many questions, with pieces of paper and documents here, but there is just so much. Possibly again in the future, that would be wonderful.

    Thank you, everyone, for joining us. I really enjoyed this episode: learning about these things, making sense of what I had only vaguely understood before, and hearing Lyam explain them. If you enjoyed it, please like this video, subscribe to the Perseus channel, and also head over to all of Lyam’s links below. Visit his YouTube channel, subscribe to his YouTube, and take a look at his Patreon. To have expert advice for a small amount of money is very worthwhile.

    Thank you all, and I will see you on the next episode.


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