Alexander Moore returns to Perseus Conversations for a deep dive into one of the subjects we briefly touched upon in our previous interview: the Body of Light. You can see the interview on YouTube here, or read it here.
Alexander is a professional occultist and one half of Practical Occult. He grew up around magic, has trained in a number of different systems under several teachers, and now teaches practical magical methods professionally.
In this conversation we explore what the Body of Light actually is, how it differs from ordinary mental wandering and astral projection, the skills required to build one, its relationship with the astral temple, possible dangers, its role in magical practice, and the much more controversial question of whether such a structure can preserve consciousness after physical death.
This transcript has been edited only for readability. Hesitations, repeated words, false starts, timestamps and obvious automatic-caption errors have been removed. The substance of the conversation has otherwise been retained.
Introduction
PAA: It’s been a few months since you were on before. Right at the end of that conversation, we briefly touched upon the subject of the Body of Light. I think that fascinated a lot of people, and I know a lot of people have gone on to investigate it. Today we’re going to go into it. But just for anyone who didn’t see that first video, do you want to give everyone a very brief background of yourself?
Alexander: Yeah, sure. My name’s Alexander Moore. I’m a professional occultist. I am one half of the company Practical Occult.
I grew up doing magic. I came from a family that did it. Very fortunate in that respect.
I’ve been fortunate to train in a number of different systems under a number of really excellent mentors. Like I said, I do it full-time. I teach it.
One of the greater joys in my life is spreading real magic that actually works and spreading the understanding that magic can, if trained properly, work at an extremely high level in a person’s life, and that it should be used to benefit a person’s life in a very tangible way.
PAA: I think that was one of the biggest things from that first video that did really well. People were like, “Oh my God, I can actually use it.”
Alexander: People messaged me for months. Again, thank you for having me back and having me on the first time.
A lot of the messages were something along the lines of, “No one had ever given me permission, so to speak, to use these things.”
You’ve got the Bardon community. They train hard. I mean every day, hours and hours a day, some of these people.
I’ve had some of them say, “Yeah, man. I used vital force to make something happen for the first time, and it happened, and now I have a job.”
There you go.
PAA: Just like that. The needle can move so quickly.
Alexander: It can, especially with all the work that some of these people have been putting in. It’s years in the making for some of them.
So many hours in the bag.
What Is the Body of Light?
PAA: We touched upon the Body of Light right at the end of that conversation because you mentioned it. I was like, “What’s that?” because I hadn’t heard of it before in that context. What do you specifically mean by the Body of Light? Obviously there are different traditions with these terms, and why should a magician develop it?
Alexander: The Body of Light is an extra-physical vessel that exists on the etheric and astral planes, as well as the mental plane and the causal plane.
It can move up and down that. One creates it and essentially pilots it so that their out-of-body shenanigans are safer and, frankly, more productive.
For example, for the Franz Bardon crowd, you’ll see Bardon talk about how you’re either mental wandering or you’re astral projecting.
If you’re fully astral projecting and someone even breathes on you wrong, you’re going to die and explode and everything’s going to be horrible because all of your soul is completely out of your body.
The Body of Light is a thing that allows you to have a dial instead of an either/or.
You create this structure and you bounce your consciousness into it. Then you pilot it. You leave and you can do things out of your body.
You can also, if you develop it properly, use it on its own.
This is where, for example, in a lot of witchcraft traditions they will refer to sending the fetch.
It’s a Body of Light.
In fact, there are some traditions that have you make multiple.
You can take them within you, and each one has its own purpose.
There are some traditions that sort of come pre-built with a Body of Light.
For example, the Italian Benandanti, those who have what’s referred to as the Lombard’s Gift, will be excellent with astral projection and out-of-body stuff.
Essentially, the initiation into that tradition produces a Body of Light that has a concurrent connection to the energy, the witch fire, if you will, of that tradition.
Then you have other traditions that will produce, for example, the magicians or witches that go forth in the form of an animal.
That is a Body of Light.
If you look at it from a Western Hermetics perspective, it’s a copy of you yourself, but better.
You can pilot it, use it to heal yourself and others.
You can send it out, have it learn things, come back and reabsorb it.
It also allows the survival of the consciousness after death in a guaranteed fashion.
A lot of magicians, both good and evil magicians, produce a Body of Light or several so that they have the ability to maintain their consciousness, memories, personality and plans post-mortem.
Because if you do not have a Body of Light, the soul and spirit left behind are bleeding.
Anyone who’s ever done any sort of necromancy will tell you that the first year after a person’s dead, it’s them.
It’s them for sure.
Then after that, the shade, the thing that’s left behind, is often just the collected memories of a person.
They can’t learn.
They can’t produce new things.
They can only use the knowledge that they had in life and the perspectives that they had in life.
It’s why a lot of necromancers will give offerings to ghosts in the form of water or fire.
This kind of beefs up the Body of Light around the shade and can sometimes pull more of the original soul back into the shade.
Not always.
Sometimes the soul has gone elsewhere.
Where exactly?
That’s obviously debated.
Eschatology and the afterlife are a big discussion, and I’m not a theologian.
I’m a nuts-and-bolts, good-with-tools magician.
I’m not here to tell you where we go when we die.
I haven’t been there yet that I remember.
I’m sure I have and I’ve come back a hundred times, as all of us have.
But there you go.
It’s an extra-etheric structure that we create intentionally through various means and we pilot.
We can have more than one.
We can put them in various places.
A lot of Taoist things will put them in their abdomen.
It’s often said the Golden Immortal Fetus is a form of this, but not exactly this.
In some of the traditions I’m trained in, you keep your Body or Bodies of Light in your lower dantian for when you need them.
A lot of people who send the fetch will keep them in the heart centre for when they need them.
I’ve also seen traditions where people kept them in vessels like statues or dolls outside themselves.
In fact, it’s often like the Koschei the Deathless myth where the evil wizard puts his soul in an egg, which is in a bird, which is in a fox, which is in a hole, which is grown over by a tree, which is on an island, which is in a castle.
Unless you can get to that egg, you can never truly kill him.
There’s something to that in the sense that it’s an immortality practice.
If you’ve created the Body of Light properly, it has its own metabolism that produces its own etheric, astral, mental and Akashic energies.
You create the engine and it works.
You no longer need to survive, hypothetically, off astral vampirism.
A lot of evil sorcerers after death are said to survive off the same level of vampirism they were probably practising in life.
That’s how they maintain their personality outside of what I refer to as soul bleed.
But if you have the Body of Light created, you needn’t do that.
This is where you have your Secret Chiefs, if you will, your Great White Brotherhood types.
Again, I can’t say for sure that those groups of people exist.
Certainly, this is anecdotal, but I have encountered crystallised Bodies of Light of magicians from various places and various eras.
I’ve even encountered the crystallised Body of Light of a magician I knew in life who was like, “Look, I did it. This is a thing.”
He told me where to find something.
He told me, “I’m going to die. I will visit you and I will tell you where to find a thing in my home. This is how I’m going to prove it.”
That’s what he did.
I found the thing, and it was there.
It wasn’t that I saw him in a dream.
I saw him in waking life as clearly as I would see anyone else in front of me.
Bilocation and a Post-Mortem Encounter
PAA: That’s interesting. So you’re walking around and there he was?
Alexander: Yeah.
The thing is, the Body of Light is also the engine for bilocation.
Mechanically speaking, magicians who can bilocate, that’s how they do it.
Their Body of Light is crystallised that hard.
Of course, this requires training towards that end.
You create your Body of Light and then you pilot your Body of Light.
When you’re in that Body of Light, you pour a ton of vital energy into it to the point where it becomes more solid, where it can produce poltergeist activity and then eventually be seen by people.
It’s assumed, for example, that Jesus had a very, very well-developed Body of Light.
That was how he could do the things that he did after death.
PAA: That’s an epic introduction to the Body of Light. Especially having that firsthand experience with one of your previous mentors. They previously said, “Okay, this is what I’m going to do.” How long after they actually passed on did they come and see you?
Alexander: Ninety days to the day.
That’s what he said.
He said, “Ninety days to the day after I die, I will be there.”
So I was waiting the whole day like, “Okay, today’s the day.”
PAA: That’s kind of even more epic, that they’re able to keep a good track of time.
Alexander: In a way it is.
It’s kind of funny.
All of these things, yes, it’s incredible and it’s really impressive.
But if you look at the fact that he was nuts-and-bolts building this thing for like 40 years, it’s really not as impressive.
He had been so accustomed to piloting this thing out of his body.
I had only ever seen him do this once, but other people who knew him were like, “Oh, he can be in two places at once.”
That’s how they would say it.
He could actually be bilocating.
So I was like, well, if anyone can do it, he’s going to be able to do it.
But also, it’s all just a meditative practice.
That’s the funny thing about all of these amazing high-level magical feats.
It’s just like anything else in life.
It’s built brick by brick.
Building the Body of Light
PAA: Coming to how it’s built, on your Practical Occult website you have your curriculum and it’s a capstone skill, a capstone course. Essentially you need the things that come before it. For those that don’t know, should we go into a little background of what you might need in terms of structuring such a thing?
Alexander: For the Bardon heads out there, what you need is to be able to transfer your consciousness.
You need, at the very least, mastery of vital, astral and mental energy.
Personally, in my curriculum, I separate astral and etheric energy as different things.
One doesn’t strictly need this.
I just find it helpful.
Ideally, if you have access to Akasha and Non-Dual Light, that speeds the process up considerably.
But that’s really all you need, aside from your focus exercises and things of that nature, and the willingness to spend the time.
You’re looking at probably having to put, conservatively, 20 hours into building the Body of Light to the point where you can bounce back and forth.
You also have resources like Clint Marsh’s The Mentalist’s Handbook, where he teaches you how to build it with just etheric energy.
Of course, focus and the transfer of consciousness and things like that are also involved, which he teaches in his own way.
An invaluable book, in my opinion.
PAA: I’ve got that. That is a little gem.
Alexander: It is.
He’s unique about the way he teaches it.
I’ve never seen anyone teach it like Clint does.
He’s a real one.
He’s so whimsical and optimistic.
I love at the very end of his book where he’s basically like, “If I didn’t think you could use this for evil, I wouldn’t bother saying this, but don’t be a dick.”
Because it’s true.
You can run amok.
But that’s really all you need.
The reason why I call it a capstone skill is much like vaulting.
It’s a thing that takes you from a true beginner to essentially an intermediate, competent magician.
Every competent magician should have the Body of Light.
Every competent magician should be able to vault.
They should be able to send thoughts into other people.
They should be able to send their consciousness out.
They should have access to all of what Bardon had in Book One and everything that I teach in mine.
Or, for example, what Bob Smith teaches in his Master Course.
We talk about these being the 60 skills you need.
He’s not wrong.
That is correct.
Wonderful teacher for doing that.
But truly, it’s important to have.
What’s interesting is that much like all these other skills, when you break it down, pretty much everybody has this.
They call it something different, but they all have a containment unit that they can use to safely leave their body.
A lot of what it is is protection.
If your Body of Light is damaged, you can repair it.
If it’s destroyed, which it can be, you can repair it.
Your soul isn’t destroyed.
You can, for example, astral project using something like the Monroe Institute’s rope method where you pretend you’re climbing a rope and eventually pop out.
That takes a long time and you’re not as strong.
You’re not as solid.
It’s sort of like an extreme version of mental wandering, but you are vulnerable.
Whereas with a Body of Light, there are plenty of traditions that have spells and spirits and tools to weaponise it.
You look at an Eastern European vrykolak, for example.
They’ll lie down and project into their Body of Light, but they’ll be holding a knife on their chest and that knife will be a sword in the astral.
Or, to go back to the Benandanti, they’ll hold a fennel stalk and that fennel stalk will become a weapon in the astral and they’ll be able to use it quite effectively.
These things are taught all over.
Some traditions focus more on the here and now, how they’re effective and how they help.
Some focus more on the eschatology: this is what you build for after death and why you should have it.
It’s all important because it’s all very useful.
My father would always say it can do anything you can do.
Because it can do anything you can do and it’s part of you, in great duress you can be like:
“Oh no, I’m in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and someone I care about is in danger in Beijing. I will send this to them to protect them while I figure things out on my end.”
It can be extremely helpful.
Now, there’s a caveat.
It has a much simpler, stripped-down version of your personality.
It doesn’t have the same finesse you do if it’s just on its own and you’re not piloting it.
It has an echo of you because on its own it really isn’t anything but a construct.
If you let it fade, it will fade.
I will say it does appear — and I can’t really say for sure — that if you build it to a certain point, it will always be there through various lives.
I’ve even had students who were like, “Oh, I tried the Body of Light and I already have it, but it looks different.”
At first I was like, “What do you mean?”
It’s a little strange.
In one case, this guy was with me in person and we both projected at the same time.
I was like, “Oh shit, it does not look like you.”
My friend, you are not an old Chinese man.
That really must have been you once upon a time.
It’s weird because from that he was able to absorb a lot of knowledge of Taoist sorcery that he otherwise should not have had.
When you did some research, you were like, “Oh yeah, that’s a real thing.”
Some people are lucky enough to have something pre-packaged in that way.
Risks of the Body of Light
PAA: That’s interesting. It sounds like it’s all upsides. Let’s talk about some of the possible risks or difficulties someone might have in building it, or once they’ve got it, in the activity of using it.
Alexander: There is a camp of people that are very anti-Body of Light, and they’re not wrong in the way they talk about it.
They’re like, “That’s a good way to become a ghost that’s bound to the world.”
They’re very much like, you should allow yourself to be put on the reincarnative wheel, or if you haven’t achieved enlightenment or whatever, you shouldn’t focus on that because that sticks you here.
It’s too material.
I’ve heard that.
But then they have the Rainbow Body and it kind of does the same thing, except it dissolves your physical body.
Again, I do not know that I possess the Rainbow Body.
I don’t believe that I do.
I have not seen the Rainbow Body in action, although I do know someone who is trying to build it.
So I guess I’ll see if he dissolves into rainbow light when he dies 40 years from now or whatever.
But it does seem like those people feel as though the Western method of the Body of Light is too grounded in the world, in worldliness, and grounded in what some people I’ve talked to describe as a large hubris.
“How dare you decide to stay on?”
My retort is, well, if you are accustomed to travelling to other realms, for example the planetary spheres, heaven or hell realms, elemental kingdoms, which the Bardonists among us will be very familiar with, try travelling there in your Body of Light.
It’s much more vivid.
If created well, the Body of Light will give you that feeling of:
“I’m literally there.”
One downside, though, is because you have that feeling of “I’m literally there,” you can do some things that Bardon warns about in his second book.
He’s basically like, don’t have sex with the mermaid.
Just don’t do it.
You can, if that’s what you choose.
I would not recommend it.
But you can bring things back with you.
You may not cleanse and purify your Body of Light correctly.
Your Body of Light can become evil if you live a vicious life.
There are also traditions that will not necessarily bind you, but you’ve created this witch-body.
One of my old teachers just referred to it as the witch body.
For her, everything was witch-hyphen-thing.
The witch heart.
The witch brain.
The witch body.
The witch hand.
The witch’s foot.
For example, if you wanted to curse someone, you would awaken the witch’s foot, which is part of your Body of Light.
You would overlay it over yourself and step on someone else’s footprint and send a dark version, essentially, of Akashic energy in the form of the evil eye through the footprint, through the echo of that person, through their memory and then into their body.
That was a way she would say, “Yes, do this.”
Looking at it now, I would never sit her down and be like, “Oh yes, it is the Akashic force that you’re using.”
She’d just say, “That’s the witch power.”
Different traditions, different lexicon.
English was certainly not her first language, and I was lucky she spoke as much of it as she did.
In general, there are some traditions where it’s like, yes, you create these external bodies and then after you die you go on the Wild Hunt or you go into the court of this thing.
This is no different, by the way, than when Bardon talks about a lot of magicians going to the planetary schools and one by one training and learning there and graduating into other things.
Or, for example, some of the apocryphal idea that if you’re a magician who works with demons, they’ll enslave you after death and you’ll become a demon in their legion.
Well, sometimes.
But there are magicians, for example the late Jake Stratton-Kent, where that was what he wanted and that was what he aspired towards.
To each their own.
By his own admission, he wanted to become something like a spirit from the Grimorium Verum.
If you know, you know.
That can be a downside unless you realise that you as the magician have sovereignty.
If, for example, you have access to your own Akasha, you can dissolve the chains of fate.
You can dissolve the threads of pacts and bindings.
Just as you can dissolve, if we’re being honest, the fate, joy and progress of other people or things.
You can say no.
For example, you look at Bardon’s second book or third book. He talks about the letter H as a fate letter.
Yeah.
You can change destiny, if given permission by Divine Providence.
That’s Bardon’s caveat.
“I’m not telling you you can. God’s telling you you can.”
And I’m like, well, again, I love you, Franzie B, and one day I’m going to meet you in the afterlife and you’re probably going to hate me and that’s okay.
But he was kind of like, yes, you can change people’s fates, but only if God lets you.
Unless you’re one of those evil magicians who just does this to people.
So God lets them, but not you?
I’m never going to have an interview with you guys without poking a hole in Franzie B.
He’s my guy.
I’d love to sit and chill with the man, but I don’t think he’d break bread with me.
But the point is, you can go, “Okay, fine. I don’t want this fate, or I don’t want this fate for a loved one.”
For example, for all those listening, if you have a loved one who’s very sick, you can use your access to Akasha, or the Kabbalistic letter H, or a number of other forces that alter or dissolve fate.
You can go:
“Show me their death.”
“Show me the pathway to do this.”
We know how to do these things.
We can project into the future.
We can project into the ball above the head and see what’s going on.
This is also the mechanism behind divination, broadly speaking.
If we can do this, and we’ve all done these things, and you see someone who’s suffering, you can use your Akashic energy.
You can dissolve those threads of potential and, if you’re good enough, probably steer them into something better.
So too can you do this for yourself near your death.
There are many occultists from various traditions who, when their bags are being packed — to quote Professor Charles Porterfield — ask what percentage of your bags are already packed?
Legend, Porterfield. One of the best living conjurers today.
You’ll see a lot of magicians, witches, shamans, everyone, start preparing.
An old teacher would say, “I’m building my house on the other side.”
And she did build a house on the other side.
That’s the thing.
You can go there.
She left me a sigil.
I can go and talk to her whenever I want.
That’s interesting, but also that’s nothing new.
That’s another funny thing I bring up to people.
Any fairy tale you’ve ever read, it behoves you as an occultist to reverse-engineer it.
Go:
“How could I do that with what I know?”
“How can I do that with what I understand how to do?”
Once you hit a wall where you’re like, “I don’t know how to do that,” yes, you do.
You do.
I promise you do.
If you’re any good, you do.
You’re just not used to thinking laterally.
Underestimating the Body of Light
PAA: So, to bring that back to the Body of Light, perhaps one misconception is actually underplaying its ability?
Alexander: Yes.
If, for example, the Body of Light can produce poltergeist activity if trained correctly — and it can — and having read The Mentalist’s Handbook, you see Clint Marsh’s coin trick.
Instead of doing that with your body, you do it with your Body of Light.
You start by using astral and etheric energy to condense hard enough around a coin to tap it a little bit.
Most people will do that exercise and they’ll get the coin to move once, which is amazing, and go:
“Holy shit, I did it. This is so cool.”
And they’ll never do it again.
Which is fine.
I’m not saying you need to spend your life learning telekinesis.
In fact, I think that’s kind of a fool’s errand because of the thousands of hours you need to put into it to be able to do anything superhero-level.
There’s more to life.
But much like ghosts and discarnate spirits can, with a big boost of energy, knock something over, so too can you in your Body of Light.
You can ramp it up and condense.
That’s why a lot of the Taoist condensing exercises can be done in the Body of Light for a different kind of thing.
You could, I don’t know, shove something over.
How useful it is to you is really up to you.
Most people who bilocate will do so at great energetic cost to themselves and for something that’s very important.
I say most because there are magicians out there who just do whatever for whatever reason, and to assume that’s not true is naive.
But the misconception is that it’s only for one of these things, and that there is a lowbrow use of it in a material sense whereas you should only focus on the spiritually enlightened part of it.
Supposing that’s true, that’s actually a faster path, which is funny because most people will tell you the material path, the path of the sorcerer, is fast but it costs this or that.
Not so much.
Again, 20 hours and you probably have your Body of Light roughly good.
What does that mean?
Fifteen minutes a day?
Twenty hours is not that hard to do.
You’re looking at it in a couple of months at the very low end.
You can really get it.
You’ll have that amazing astral projection experience.
Your psychic stuff will be better.
Your dreams will be better.
Everything will be great.
Then you’re like, “Cool, now I’m going to think about Hermetic axioms and heresies and go waste time being a Gnostic bishop and things of that nature.”
I have a very low opinion of Gnostic bishops.
Ask anybody.
But truly, survival post-death is extremely important, but that isn’t all it’s for.
Much like anything else, you’re limiting yourself in the delight you can have from these things if you don’t use them for cool shit in your life.
Plus it’s fun.
Astral projection is fun and cool.
You should do it because it’s fun.
Clarity and Vividness
PAA: I think as well, from looking at your material, maybe coming from a Bardon perspective, the boost in clarity is huge. You can have mental wandering that over time gets better and better and more clear, but this can really give you, in the here and now rather than ten years down the line, that vividness and the feeling of being there. That can have a huge impact upon your practice, your dedication and the time you’re willing to put into this stuff when you’ve got that kind of experience.
Alexander: One hundred percent.
The Body of Light and the Astral Temple
PAA: One other thing I know you were talking about, and I think this is a good combination and possibly links onto some things people will talk about in the Discord: do you want to talk about the combination of this and working in this way within your astral temple?
Alexander: Yeah, of course.
This makes the astral temple work far stronger.
It lets you engage with it a lot better.
It lets you train the Body of Light a lot better.
Any of your spirit guides, patron spirits or your spirit court, if you will, can be accessed in your astral temple and they can help train you.
They can help outfit your Body of Light.
It can essentially be a place where it is stored.
You may store it in your lower dantian, but realistically the Body of Light is you and so is your astral temple.
In some ways your astral temple is a Body of Light, because a lot of magicians who have not produced the Body of Light but have done a lot of astral-temple work, when they die they’ll find themselves there in that little pocket realm.
They actually built that thing.
Some people go, “Oh, there’s already one here.”
Yeah.
One exercise that I give in my own coursework with the astral temple is you’re in it and then you expand it around you physically.
You’re in it and you feel it around you and you open your eyes and expand it.
One day you’ll eventually be able to see it very vividly, but you don’t need to see it vividly to get it done.
Then it’s like you have dominion over the entire room or building over which you’ve expanded it.
The Body of Light can do a similar thing when you’re walking around in your internal temple like that.
Of course, there are very high-level magicians who can produce the internal temple in the same way that you can bilocate the Body of Light, where other people will see it around you and around them.
This is detailed, for example, in Dion Fortune’s novels.
The Sea Priestess is one where that’s essentially what is going on.
Those who’ve read the novel will know what I’m talking about.
That’s how it moves together.
In the same sense, if you project your Body of Light into someone else’s internal temple, you can have more impact there.
Not that you can’t have impact if you just project your mental body.
Of course you can.
This is where things like remote influence come in.
But your astral body, your Body of Light, is much more effective.
You bring the whole thing.
Again, there’s safety there.
If it’s hurt or destroyed, you just snap back into yourself and you’re good.
It’s actually why the internal temple is so important for layers of safety.
You project outside your Body of Light, you’re destroyed, you go back into the internal temple and then back into you.
That stopgap in between can capture negative energies and spirits that are trying to follow you.
PAA: So that’s a safety measure for when you go out exploring. For anyone who’s into this stuff, it almost seems like a no-brainer to start getting involved in this.
How Long Does It Take?
PAA: Let’s say someone’s watching this video and you’ve given a timeline of about 20 hours, but that’s 20 hours considering they’ve already got the other skills. For someone starting from scratch, what are we talking about to get to the point where they can notice the difference between normal mental-wandering experiments and actual Body of Light experience?
Alexander: Provided you have all the other stuff, it depends on how long it takes you to build the other skills.
If you do my method, it’s the same thing I said before: around six months to get everything under your belt if you’re practising diligently.
If you get The Mentalist’s Handbook and do Clint Marsh’s method purely, I’m not sure.
I never timed that one with people.
Probably shorter because he has a different, more fast-tracked way to it.
Not that it’s any less effective.
Again, the book is a true gem.
He puts so much information in there that you rarely find connected to all sorts of other things.
I think you probably get it faster with his method, but maybe not as completely as with mine.
There’s also a book called Between the Gates by Mark Stavish.
I will give the man that flower.
That’s an excellent book about producing the Body of Light in itself, although it doesn’t go into anything you can actually do with it.
It’s very much like, yeah, you have this thing and that’s great, and now you can survive the second death or whatever.
But he doesn’t talk about the cool shit you can do with it.
Unfortunately, very few people do.
You have people who are good with tools and they’re looked down upon for looking at it as a craft, a practice and a technology.
Or you’ve got people who are a little bit hoity-toity and think that they’re better than infecting the material world.
I will always have resentment for such people and I will make it public.
But like I said, six months from scratch to really get it as part of my curriculum, if you do the method and diligently practise.
This is also where I differ from Bardon.
He wants you to take more time with each step.
Especially when I have individual students, I’ll push them out of their comfort zone.
In my Principles of Magic Discord, we occasionally have live practice groups.
Some days I’ll be like, “Yeah, we’re doing vaulting today.”
People will be like, “This is my first class.”
I’m like, “Great. Awesome. Let’s vault. Let’s do it.”
I’ll have people do it and their vaults will sometimes work.
Not all the time.
But you can do more than you think.
Speedrunning the Body of Light
PAA: So if you really sat yourself down and said, “I’ve done the vital, astral and mental energy lessons, I’ve done the transfer-of-consciousness lesson, and I’m skipping ahead to the Body of Light lesson,” you could potentially go straight for it?
Alexander: You could probably pull it off in 15, 20, 40 hours cumulative if you really wanted to whole-ass it.
You need about five hours of each basic energy to really feel it and be able to do it.
Again, these are rough estimates.
Some people are naturally more gifted and can just do it.
Some people take a little longer.
If it takes five hours for each base element, about five hours cumulative for the transfer-of-consciousness technique to really hit, then you’re good.
Then you’re right on to building the Body of Light.
There’s a lot of other stuff in the course that you’re not going to know how to do, a lot of other energies you’re not going to know how to generate.
But if that’s your goal, you can speedrun that.
PAA: It’s pretty amazing really. Just six months, three months of focused effort and there you are.
Alexander: If you’re diligent.
That’s the caveat.
If you sit down and do an hour a day of practice and your only goal is to build a Body of Light, you’ve got 60 minutes.
Ten minutes a day of each base energy.
Ten minutes of transference of consciousness.
That’s 40 minutes and you’ve got 20 minutes of just working to build the Body of Light.
Let’s say you wanted to start it all on day one.
Would you be super clean with those energies?
Absolutely not.
But after a month you’re generating all the energies cleanly.
At that point, if you’re a hard-ass and you’re like, “I’m going to spend a whole hour over the course of a day on this thing,” you can be doing 15 minutes here, ten minutes here, five minutes here, 30 minutes here.
Just building it up and building it up.
Then doing what I say.
You build it the way I teach it and then you bounce your consciousness back and forth between you and it until you pop out in it.
Then you walk around the room.
That’s how you train it.
As we see, for example, in Clint Marsh’s stuff, you walk around the room, then you walk around your house, then you walk around your neighbourhood, then you walk around the world.
After that point, you’re pretty good.
Scary and Remarkable Experiences
PAA: We’ve established that if you want to do it, it’s very achievable if you put your mind to it and focus on these things. In the time you’ve been sharing these methods, what stand out to you as some of the most remarkable experiences people have had, and also possibly some of the scariest or most dangerous experiences?
Alexander: I’ll go with scariest first.
Two things come to mind.
One, they realise that the world is a dark forest.
For most of our species’ history, travel was dangerous.
There were bad people on the road.
If you’re a weird tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorist like me, there were monsters on the road.
You had to be very good at protecting yourself, very lucky or know the back roads.
There are monsters in the astral.
There are bad people.
Is it behind every corner?
No.
That’s the thing.
You can be astral projecting, walking around your whole neighbourhood, going into the city, going wherever, and be totally fine for years.
Then one day you turn a wrong corner and there’s something you’ve never seen before.
That’s why it’s important to have other magic, protective amulets, spirits, things like that.
You’re like, “Oh, what the fuck is that?”
Or you see something that’s like, “Hey, can I touch you? I want to touch you. Can I touch you?”
It will try and you’ll feel this visceral:
“Oh no. No, no, no. You cannot.”
You flee and it chases you.
I’ve had students be like, “Oh no, this shit’s very real. It plays for keeps.”
The other side is the thing that magic always gives: agency.
There’s the bone-chilling fear sometimes of what you can do.
Imagine you have real astral projection.
Mental wandering and remote viewing are wonderful.
Even people like Lyn Buchanan and others have been like, “Yeah, you can know people’s secrets. You can know the truth about things. You can influence people.”
You’re doing that and you’re eavesdropping in a board meeting of some company.
If you think certain companies don’t hire psychics to do inter-company espionage, you’re also a fool.
You’re sitting there and you’re like:
“I can go wherever I want to go.”
At first it’s fun because you’re like, “Oh yeah, I’m spying on my friend. This is funny.”
Then you’re like, wait a minute.
I wonder…
Curiosity will get you.
This is where I disagree with Bardon.
The Great White Brotherhood is not going to come and stomp a mud hole in you if you mess around and do something dirty.
They won’t.
Nothing will.
No one will stop you.
No one’s coming to save you.
No one’s coming to stop you.
A lot of my private students have had to sit with me and genuinely work out the real, visceral feeling of:
“I can do anything.”
“No one’s going to stop me.”
“I can know things.”
“I can do bad things.”
It’ll humble you.
I say this all the time: you don’t know who you are until your back’s been against a wall.
You can talk all the shit you want about how you would never, and how you’re a good person and how you’re enlightened.
“Oh, I’ve had access to my Non-Dual Light and I would never…”
Okay.
Sure you wouldn’t.
But what if you could?
It’s the same thing where if someone is a pacifist and they’re not capable of extraordinary violence, they’re just useless.
They’re not a pacifist.
Their choice holds weight when they could do otherwise.
You will now have all the weight to hold.
There’s a reason why folklorically most sorcerers are bad people.
There’s a reason why the magician is not trusted.
There’s also a reason why for most of history people have made these techniques seem much harder than they are or much less accessible than they are.
I’ve had other magicians genuinely come at me because I’m putting into the world, for fun and profit, all these techniques that you can train without having to join a lodge and kiss anyone’s ass and talk to Frater So-and-So about how wise they are.
A big part of that, to be real, is that I wouldn’t have passed muster in a lot of those lodges just given my personality.
I’m a little too spicy.
They would have been like, “You are not to be trusted.”
But I put it out there because I’d rather democratise all this in the age that we live in.
Those are the things people have seen that are horrifying or personally confronting.
What’s wonderful is a sense of liberation.
My students do not fear death.
That is an extraordinarily powerful thing.
If you are not afraid to die, you’re free to live.
That’s huge.
Normally the only people you see that from are people who say:
“I was climbing a mountain and almost fell and everything came into crystal clear focus.”
Or:
“I got in this car accident and everything flashed before me and I knew what my purpose was.”
Same thing.
You will know.
You’ll be like:
“I touched God and I am whole.”
Crazy stuff.
Wonderful stuff.
I’ve had students in genuine tears be like:
“Everything makes sense now. This is so great. Thank you so much.”
But oftentimes those are all in the same conversation.
“I saw a monster.”
“I am a monster.”
“I am whole.”
Thirty-minute conversation.
Then I tell them:
“Cool. Now you’re intermediate.”
And they’re like:
“What?”
There’s more.
There’s so much more.
It never ends.
Now you’re in the club.
There are just as many truly evil things you can do with the Body of Light as there are good.
I’m not going to go into detail on that.
Anything you’ve heard of — read myths, read stories, read fantasy novels — and ask:
“How would I do that?”
“How could I?”
Because it makes you a better magician.
Makes you smarter.
It gets you thinking right about the skill.
How to use your abilities.
The Dark Forest and the Second Death
PAA: That cold, clear awakening you described — the dark forest is a great image for that. It’s so vast and there’s so much out there, and you don’t necessarily want to make yourself known because as soon as you do, the bigger monster can come along.
Alexander: Sure.
Another thing a few students have said melancholically to me is that when they have this, they realise almost no one else does.
They’ll survive the second death and most people they know won’t.
That weighs on them.
PAA: That’s an interesting one. It’s sort of a roll of the dice. If you jump on the wheel, then in most cases there goes the memory. Is that a good bet? Or do we hang on to this personality and crystallise this one?
Alexander: That’s the thing.
You look at it and you’re like:
“People I care about, great friends, I will endure past them.”
It’s one of the reasons why a lot of yogis and mystics practise detachment.
They’re like:
“I’ve got to be present when I’m present, but not let it get to me.”
It’s funny, actually.
There are theories through certain Franz Bardon letter-magic forces that you can use this to create a Body of Light that is essentially like an angel.
Like Enoch became Metatron.
Bob Smith, for example, and I have discussed this.
Some people believe the Egyptian gods or other gods could have been this.
Not all of them, surely.
But Osiris was a man and then wasn’t.
Odin was a man and then wasn’t.
It’s very possible this can turn you into something else if that’s your goal.
A lot of witches — true witches, which I distinguish from Wicca — will be like, “Yes, I’m cultivating to become something else.”
I met someone who I often reference vaguely.
He referred to himself as a follower of the Dharma of the Devil Tiger.
He was cultivating to be a demon.
Because he was like:
“This is what I want.”
There are Taoist yin alchemists and evil immortals that are like:
“Yep. Going to be a demon. It’s going to be great.”
If you’re a Big Trouble in Little China enthusiast, Lo Pan, right?
His Body of Light was extremely well developed.
Use that as an example.
How did he do it?
If he had all those centuries of life and he practised, of course he’d be able to do those things.
PAA: I love it. We’ve got an eighties reference in the Body of Light interview.
Alexander: For the listeners, if you have not seen Big Trouble in Little China, it’s the best documentary on Taoist sorcery.
Just reverse-engineer each one of those skills and you’re good.
PAA: Actually, yes. Unironically, yes.
How Difficult Is the Body of Light Really?
PAA: We’ve established that this is not a far-out skill that’s necessarily going to take two decades if you want to do it. It does come with some soul-searching as to whether you want to crystallise this personality or roll the dice, but the possibilities are literally unlimited in terms of what you can do with this stuff. Is there anything else we haven’t covered in terms of the Body of Light that you think people should know or that would inform them about this sort of technology?
Alexander: Realistically, not especially.
I would just caution people, if you have multiple traditions, if you’re fortunate enough to be able to cross-train, truly not to go to your teachers and be like:
“Oh yes, actually that’s the Body of Light.”
“And in fact, that’s not the filia, or that’s not whatever.”
They’ll just slap you upside the head and be like:
“Shut up. Work harder.”
Train and be diligent always in all things.
I think that’s the biggest takeaway.
Keep in mind that there were people for a long time who kept these things not just hidden but under the guise that they were harder than they are to do.
There’s a reason for that.
As much of a knee-jerk reaction as a younger me had in terms of vindictiveness — “Well, I wouldn’t have passed muster” — it was only because I grew up where I grew up, in the family I grew up in, that I even had access to these things.
But once you gain it, it’s kind of funny.
Once you have it, you can think about all the people you’d never want to have it, who you would never trust with it.
At the same time, magic seeks magic.
Magic seeks people.
It seeks to fill the vessel.
It wants to be practised.
It wants to be known.
The “information wants to be free” adage of the nineties hackers.
It wants to be known and it wants to be practised.
This is a spiritual technology that we are designed to do.
Anyone can do this.
I want to stress that.
Anyone can do this.
People may scoff at the idea of, I don’t know, a Walmart cashier building a Body of Light.
But then I would also ask how many listeners to various podcasts are essentially underperforming in their own lives.
This, as well as other spiritual technologies, is increasingly the difference between a great life and no life at all.
If you have these unfair advantages, you can use them.
You can, for example, overlay the Body of Light over yourself and produce a stronger aura than you otherwise could.
Everyone who’s done any kind of energy-work training or internal-power stuff knows this.
“I can use the electric line of force to big myself up.”
“I can magnetise people.”
“I can do all sorts of stuff.”
You can do it ten times stronger if you overlay the Body of Light.
The potential for self-healing is also crazy because your Body of Light needs to look like an idealised version of you.
If you’re injured, you overlay it over the injured part and you vital-energy dump into it.
You’re going to heal orders of magnitude quicker than you otherwise could.
That’s a freebie for the people listening.
Again, we all get hurt.
PAA: Absolutely. I think those two things alone are huge recommendations for this practice. Literally almost anything that we can think of that we would be doing, it’s ten times more with the Body of Light.
Alexander: Absolutely.
Again, the Body of Light is one of those things where whether you build it yourself, you’re initiated into a tradition that gives it to you, or you have a spirit give it to you, there are pros and cons.
You don’t really get to tailor it in the same way.
But if you’ve already had it and you’re initiated and spirits help augment it, some of us have multiple.
Some of us have multiple for various reasons.
Some of us just have one and it looks like an amalgamation of everything we’ve done.
You’ll scry someone and you’ll see their Body of Light and you’re like:
“Wow, you’re an eight-limbed Taoist sorcerer, Hermetic magician, Wicca person.”
It’s just everything.
It can be kind of overwhelming because it has everything.
I have a friend who lives local to me.
He does various tantric things from a North Indian perspective, and his Body of Light just has all these arms.
You’re like:
“Wow. I want to high-five each one of them.”
Initiation, Lineage and the Second Death
PAA: You say there we can build it or your tradition can basically hand you one as part of the initiation. In the latter case, how does that affect your death in terms of the second death?
Alexander: I can’t say for sure because none of us really can.
But what they will tell you is it links you to that tradition.
If you’re clever and you understand that you can change these things through use of these powers, it certainly wouldn’t necessarily have to.
But maybe that’s what you want.
Maybe you love a tradition that you’re in so much that you want to be a lineage protector of it.
Look at Taoist immortals.
Your teacher’s teacher’s teacher.
You go to their skull in a temple and you’re like:
“Give me the wisdom.”
They’re there fully realised.
Their Body of Light is there, but also the current of the tradition is holding it.
It can be both.
It depends on what you want.
Historically speaking, I don’t know how many options people were aware of having.
Maybe you’re born in Tibet.
You’re going to go either with Bön or Tibetan Buddhism, depending on the century in question.
Then maybe you’ll get it, maybe you won’t.
Maybe you’re drip-fed information and then the monks are like:
“Yeah, he’s not the one.”
Or:
“Okay, cool. We’ll tell you how to do this near the end of your life because it’s useful.”
Those traditions are amazing, but whether you will get the technology is a whole other question.
You’re sort of a cog in a system.
PAA: Now we’ve got this information open. It’s the Napster of esoteric information. That’s a reference that’s dating me. But now this information is out. You might be given this as part of a tradition, but if you’re aware of what Akasha and Non-Dual Light can do, can you kind of receive the gift and unattach it from the source?
Alexander: Yeah.
You can backdoor things.
That’s the thing people don’t like to hear either.
This is anecdotal.
I’ve known people who’ve used their Body of Light to project into certain mandalas and get empowerments.
Then they went to lineage holders of various traditions and were like:
“I got this empowerment. Look.”
They do the mantra and the lineage holder is like:
“Yep. You sure did. That is absolutely the empowerment.”
Then they’re like:
“I got it by myself with the thing.”
I’ve seen this conversation happen because they were like, “I want you to come with me and see this.”
Then that person’s like:
“Yeah. Don’t tell anyone that’s possible.”
PAA: Keep the system going.
Alexander: Now, for context, you can also go in there and be told no by the spirit.
You can.
In this case, this person was very diligent.
They’d been doing a lot of mantras.
They’d been doing the practice.
They just hadn’t had access to the empowerment and weren’t going to have access to it for a calendar year.
They’re like:
“Let me give this a go.”
But just like everything else, if you have spirits on your side, they can make introductions for you to other spirits.
Pressure-Testing Visionary Experiences
There is one caveat.
As with everything else, you need to ground your visions and your visionary capacity in reality.
Just because you have the Body of Light does not mean you understand everything you’re seeing.
It does not mean that you are completely lucid all the time.
It’s much like dreaming.
People who practise lucid dreaming will also have a very easy time doing Body of Light stuff because it’s kind of the same.
You can be astral projecting or in your Body of Light and just lose focus.
You drift and you’re back in your body.
Happens to all of us.
Anyone who says it doesn’t is lying.
So just because you’re like:
“Oh, I went and got a Kurukulla empowerment from Kurukulla.”
Okay, cool.
Is your practice more powerful objectively?
Does it hit different?
Can you do things with it that you could not do before?
If the answer is no, maybe you did, maybe you didn’t.
Can you go to the Tibetan Buddhist in question and go:
“Did it work?”
And they’ll maybe sheepishly go:
“Yeah, actually you did get it.”
Or will they go:
“No. What are you talking about? That’s insane.”
That’s the thing.
Every skill you have, you must pressure-test it.
There is no exception to this.
As with any other skill, you will fail more times than you succeed for a long time.
But in order to be truly good at anything, you need to be willing to fail more times than the average person is willing to try.
PAA: Perfect advice. Perfect closing advice. If you’re going to get anywhere in anything, apply that.
Alexander: Exactly.
Closing Advice
PAA: That’s a really good breakdown of the Body of Light. For anyone who’s interested in Alexander’s work, the Body of Light course or skill is contained within Alex’s curriculum. You basically have a whole zero-to-hero curriculum that goes through every aspect. What we’re talking about today is kind of around the end of that curriculum, although as we said, under certain circumstances you could speedrun that as well. Alexander, is there anything you’d like to say before we close on this subject?
Alexander: Just my usual motivational speech.
If you’re hearing this, you owe it to yourself to train.
The world is not getting any better.
I don’t care who you are or where you live.
Your life would be better if you had this ability.
This one specifically, or any of the ones that I teach, that Bob teaches, that any of the lovely people in Perseus teach.
Get Clint Marsh’s book.
Do Bardon’s book.
Just buy the book.
I don’t care what you do.
Just do something.
Train.
Train your internal-power stuff.
Summon spirits.
Do magic.
Demand a wonderful life out of this.
Like I’ve said since my very first interview, when my career started, and I will say it until I die, and probably long after from my Body of Light:
Everything you want, someone will have it.
It might as well be you.
Because if it’s not you, it’s somebody else.
And fuck that guy.
PAA: There we go. Closing remarks. Alexander, thank you so much.
Alexander: Absolutely.
Explore Alexander Moore & Practical Occult
Practical Occult
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Principles of Magic – Full Course
https://practicaloccult.com/courses/principles-of-magic/
Previous Conversations with Alexander
Operative Magic: A Practical System for Real-World Use with Alexander Moore
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qk3jQfM0r_4
Further Questions with Alexander Moore
https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/post/further-questions-with-alexander-moore/
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