---
title: "From Samskara to Samadhi: Ryan Burton on Transforming Suffering into Insight"
url: https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/post/from-samskara-to-samadhi-ryan-burton-on-transforming-suffering-into-insight/
date: 2025-06-16
modified: 2026-07-03
lang: en
author: "Perseus Arcane Academy"
description: "Introduction In this interview with meditation teacher Ryan Burton he breaks down everything from tackling buried trauma on the cushion to what “awakening” really means in daily life. If you’ve..."
categories:
  - "Interviews"
  - "Meditation"
tags:
  - "Jhanas"
  - "Meditation"
image: https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/ryan.avif
word_count: 4764
---

# From Samskara to Samadhi: Ryan Burton on Transforming Suffering into Insight

## Introduction

In this interview with meditation teacher **Ryan Burton** he breaks down everything from tackling buried trauma on the cushion to what “awakening” really means in daily life. If you’ve ever wondered how raw suffering turns into deep clarity—or why effort and surrender both matter—then you will find this post interesting. Enjoy the read and let me know your thoughts in the comments. Many thanks to Ryan for spending the time to answer these questions.

You can follow Ryan, his work and his training opportunities on his website [here](https://www.afterawakening.com/).

---

Table of Contents

- Introduction- Meditation- Awakening- Out-of-Body Experiences- Theravāda Buddhism- Cessation of Perception and Feeling- Past Life Recall- Non-Duality- Integration After Awakening- General ReflectionsLearn About Sixty Skills

![](https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/06/ryan.avif)

## Meditation

**PAA: You’ve spoken about the challenges of long retreats. How do you think intense suffering during meditation transforms into insight or clarity?**

In the process of meditation and awakening purification is occurring. The natural outcome of practice is the arising of shadow material or stored trauma within the physiology and psyche. Intense suffering can be the emergence of trapped energies in the body or the burning out of habitual tendencies known as samskaras which have accumulated over lifetimes. Often intense emotions and dark nights which emerge from sustained meditative practice are calls for integration and healing that will result in a more thorough thinning of the identity and aspects of oneself that lead to grasping. The more negative habitual tendencies a person has, which is a response to past trauma, the more difficult it is for a person to let go or see through false identification. Trauma keeps intact the me that does not wander to surrender, vanish or be dispelled in the dawn of awakening.

**PAA: Can you elaborate on the role of effort versus surrender in meditation? At what point does striving become counterproductive?**

It really depends on the practice one is doing. Certain methods require effort. Every approach has it’s pros and cons and while generally I disagree with the use of forceful effort in meditation because of potential unintended consequences, it certainly has it’s place in the practitioners toolbox and is integral to a variety of approaches. Generally some degree of effort is required for the stabilization of attention and continuity of mindfulness to arise in the midstream of the meditator. After this point, in my opinion, effort is counterintuitive and is the result of striving and attempting to get somewhere in the practice. With any approach in meditation I’d say it’s best to know what the goal is, but to remain always in the present moment. Whatever goal the meditator is attempting to achieve is something he or she has heard of and is thereby conceiving in the mind. On surrender, there are 2 forms— the first type of surrender is a volitional action. Letting go is something you intend to do. So this form of letting go is still a doing. The second form of surrender is the state of being surrendered, which is non-volitional and superior. 

**PAA: How has your understanding of mindfulness evolved over the years? Is it more about concentration or openness for you?**

Mindfulness is a mental action. It is something one is doing. Mindfulness is the gate of practice. Its benefit is known and received immediately every time mindfulness is applied. I’d say over the years what changed is the amount of effort involved and the subtle identity patterns, which are tied to mindfulness or the concept of being mindful. Often practitioners, even advanced ones feel that because they are not mindful all the time, they cannot possibly be awakened. Mindfulness is a path dharma not a fruition dharma. The mundane mindfulness of a beginning practitioner is not comparable to the mindfulness of a Buddha. Mindfulness also has several dimensions, which I find are neglected in modern discourse, mainly due to the mindfulness movement. For example, the teaching that mindfulness is a guard against unwholesome states is almost never mentioned. In general, mindfulness is seen as a total acceptance of whatever is arising. However in the early discourses it’s clear mindfulness has the function of guarding against unwholesome thoughts or states and remembering the object of meditation. Concentration, as I currently experience it, only refers to unification of mind— absorption with a meditative object or the continuity of awareness. It is rarely if ever forced.    

**PAA: In your experience, how do body-based practices (like observing sensations) intersect with more abstract realizations about self and reality?**

I never did enough Vipassana, either Goenka style or Mahasi style to be able to answer this experientially. It’s definitely clear that by observing body sensations you break through identification with the form aggregate and thereby cease taking the body, sensations and feeling to be self. It’s also possible to open or access specific states of samadhi through working with the various charkas, but I’m not sure how reliable body scanning is when it comes to realizing non-duality or progressing further into the realization of emptiness and non-arisen (anutpada). In the Mahasi system, noting sensations is used to initiate the 16 stages of insight which culminate in cessation, which is equated with Nibbana in many Theravadin circles, but I’m not sure how this is specifically approached in the Goenka systems. 

**PAA: What advice would you give to someone who feels "stuck" in their meditation practice, unable to progress or experience deeper states?**

There’s no such thing as actually being stuck. Being stuck is two things— the thought “I am stuck” accompanied with feelings of discouragement or confusion. Reality never gets stuck. How could reality get stuck? If you identify with your thinking and still have a goal before you which you have not met or accomplished, you will feel stuck. 

Whatever goal you could attain is not apart from your mind. 

Whatever goal you have attained was not apart from your mind. 

Whatever goal you will attain will not be apart from your mind. 

Being stuck is just as unreal as the notion of progression. 

Neither exist. 

## Awakening

**PAA: You’ve described awakening as a cessation of identity and duality. Do you think this shift is accessible to everyone, or does it require specific conditions or karmic readiness?**

Everyone and everything is already awake and primordially free. Being ignorant of this we wander through samsara. All beings in truth are buddha. In my opinion, no special karma or specific conditions are required although both of these can be beneficial. I have some students who have been on the path for 2 or 3 decades, but say they have not had an awakening. I doubt this would remain the case if they lived with me or with any teacher for an entire year, meditating a few hours a day free from distractions. It is solely the thicket of thought, feeling, identification and busyness which obscures illumination. 

**PAA: How do you differentiate between temporary glimpses (like the one you had after your first retreat) and a more stable realization of awakening?**

An awakening is an event. A realization is an understanding. Both occur in time. What occurs is a realization to that which is not bound to time. The display of time & space is “happening” within the matrix of this spaceless and timeless present. This present has many names— Buddha-nature, Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Atman, Nature of Mind, Zen, Perfection of Wisdom, Reality, God… the names are endless. Before the moment of awakening, reality is obscured by misunderstanding and the absence of recognition. In the moment of awakening, this recognition occurs and realization arises. 

Awakenings which arise and pass are still at the level of experience. When insight is sufficiently mature, realization dawns and the nature of experience is revealed. Reality is every experience, but it is not limited to any specific experience. Mindfulness and all the various enlightenment factors are subject to increasing and decreasing, but reality is neither coming nor going. The mind is unborn and cannot be found. When the mind is realized to be no-mind and reality is realized to be no-reality, samsara collapses and one is released from the illusions of personhood and time. Mind and reality are two words for the same thing. 

**PAA: What role does disillusionment with life’s "dream" play in catalyzing awakening? Is it a necessary precursor?**

I believe that is the case most of the time. Unless one is suffering there is no reason to seek awakening. 

**PAA: Awakening often disrupts relationships and social dynamics. How have you personally navigated these changes in your own life?**

I didn’t. My life fell apart many times. I lost everything and had to surrender things and people I loved. Awakening and meditation is easy compared to the choices you may be faced with. It is easy to sit still and release thought. It is not easy to change and correct our behavior and habitual tendencies. It is easy to go on retreats if you have the time and money. It is hard to restrain yourself, change yourself and to make the necessary sacrifices you’re called to make when you are called to make them. 

Spirituality is not about having an ideal or best life. Spirituality is about seeing through the notion of life— realizing deathlessness and overturning habitual tendencies which perpetuate the wheel of samsara. Spirituality can be many things, actually it can be anything. Enlightenment is really just a matter of definitions as one teacher Peter Brown put it. The spirituality that I’d say really counts, is the spirituality which liberates oneself from oneself. It is the awakening which leads to the overcoming of the world through the realization that in truth there are no worlds and no beings. To be a disciple much is required. Spirituality is easy when it costs you nothing. Spirituality is the hardest thing when it costs you everything. Ultimately, this whole business of spirituality is about freedom. What is freedom really worth when it’s free? 

**PAA: Do you think there are stages or levels to awakening? If so, how would you describe them?**

There are stages of awakening yet all stages are one’s mind. The deepening of awakening occurs in time, however all process and change are occurring within the spaceless and timeless matrix of the here. The stages of awakening correspond to the falling away of afflictions, tendencies and ‘wrong views.’ Whatever happens occurs in mind, in reality and from this knowledge there are neither stages nor occurrences. The notion of ‘deepening awakening’ is referring to the arising or falling away of certain characteristics, all occurring within time. 

Bliss, communion, rapture, and non-dual union are subject to increasing and decreasing. For reality— Mahamudra, Atman, Emptiness there is no increasing or decreasing. This must be clear otherwise the yogi remains bound to a process, when in truth there are no processes nor are there persons undergoing them. There are stages in the relative sense, but which stages are superior or higher is indeterminable. 

What is determinable, without a doubt is that every stage and state is emptiness, which is just another word for here, your mind, Atman etc.  

## Out-of-Body Experiences

**PAA: Have you encountered out-of-body experiences in your practice? If so, how did they impact your understanding of consciousness and selfhood?**

I’ve had give or take a couple hundred out of body experiences since age 16, which is when I began developing that ability. Out of body experience revealed many things, primarily that consciousness is a spectrum and is not localized in either space or time. You exist in many places and on many levels. When you wake up in the morning, the totality of oneself localizes perception to your physical body here in space-time. When your body sleeps you awaken as infinity and the various levels of existence. Upon awakening in the morning again certain sections on this spectrum of consciousness are remembered. We call these dreams.  

**PAA: Some traditions view out-of-body experiences as distractions from deeper realizations like non-duality. What’s your perspective on their value or relevance?**

Out of body experiences can be as much of a distraction as any special meditative state like the jhanas or other samadhis. It’s not the state or experience itself that is the problem, but is ultimately about the craving and clinging within the practitioner, which of course can be directed at anything. The value of out of body experience is that eventually you will wonder what is guiding your nightly journeys. You will find that something is organizing synchronicity. If you seek that principle you will find what you are outside of time and outside the process of reincarnation. Some call this the Logos, the Holy Guardian Angel, the Guru principle or in modern discourse, the Higher Self. 

**PAA: Do you see any connection between out-of-body experiences and the dissolution of egoic boundaries that occurs during awakening?**

For most people I do not. In my case there was a connection because the out of body experience in sleep and non-dual unfolding in the waking state complemented each other. Higher levels of out of body experience can confer deep samadhi states such as cosmic consciousness or unity consciousness. In earth plane level out of body experience however things are quite mundane. You may meet strange or unusual beings, but this is very different from what occurs in deeper or higher levels of the out of body experience. 

The limitation of OBE is that it does not seem to result in a permanent shift to non-duality or deeper realization like emptiness. These experiences can be part of the unfolding and tapestry of events and insights which lead to it, but rarely will a single or even many OBEs result in a permanent non-dual realization or falling away of self. Since OBEs are experiences it is rare that they result in insight into the nature of experience which is necessary for realization. In this regard they are similar to psychedelic states, which can be extremely profound but don't result in a permanent or abiding realization. 

## Theravāda Buddhism

**PAA: Having roots in Theravāda Buddhism, how do you reconcile its traditional teachings with modern interpretations of awakening and non-duality?**

I can't reconcile them. I don’t know if we’re even talking about the same thing. There is no way to verify if the jhanas or insight traditions as we practice them today are indeed the ones the Buddha taught. They might be but we don’t know for sure so I think it’s best to approach these matters with open-mindedness. I have no idea if the cessation of perception and feeling I’m talking about and describing is the same one that Buddha taught and spoke of. Some modern interpretations have revised the 4 path and 10 fetter models. I think just because we as modern practitioners have failed to eradicate craving and desire does not mean the Buddha's words were metaphorical. I don’t claim to be enlightened or to be a Buddha so don’t take my word for it, but the Buddha seemed clear that when he meant destruction of conceit, lust and anger, he meant it in the absolute sense. 

Many teachers, myself included, still have worries and vexations. I'm of the opinion that a truly and fully liberated being does not. I could be wrong of course, but we shouldn’t lower the bar to make Buddhism more compatible with our lives. Trying to make Buddhism what we need it to be is just a subtle form of egocentrism. We can take Buddhism on its own terms and accept it for what it is. Buddhism, Theravada in particular, is a monastic and ascetic tradition. It has nothing to do with mindful sex or finding a fulfilling vocation. It has nothing to do with finding your place in the world. You need other teachings to address such things. 

**PAA: Theravāda emphasizes practices like Vipassana and mindfulness of breathing. Do you see these as sufficient for awakening, or do they need to be complemented by other methods?**

It depends how we’re defining awakening. If we’re referring to awakening according to the Theravadin 4-path model then these methods are sufficient. Any method works if at some point mental activity and effort is abandoned. 

**PAA: What role do the Jhanas (states of meditative absorption) play in your own practice and teaching? Are they essential for progress?**

Let me provide some background information on this since the definition of Jhana isn’t as clear now as it used to be. Besides non-dual, I practice a specific form of Theravada meditation called Dhammakaya meditation which adheres to the standard of jhana set forth in the commentarial literature such as the Visuddhimagga. Currently, there are many forms of jhana due to the fact that in the last 5 years or so there has been greater popularity in jhanas as defined in the suttas versus jhanas as defined in the commentaries. 

All current practicing traditions in regard to this make claims to presenting the authentic jhanas taught by the Buddha. I do not take any such claims as legitimate. That being said, there is a significant difference in the purification of mind available depending on the depth of absorption. The aim of both approaches is the cessation of perception and feeling (nirodha samapatti) and the falling away of the fetters. I have found that cessation is accessible without the depth of stillness required for the arising of the nimitta, which is a mental sign or object that draws one into the first jhana as defined in the commentarial literature. Jhanas are not necessary for non-dual awakening. Self-enquiry is sufficient. 

## Cessation of Perception and Feeling

**PAA: Can you explain what cessation of perception and feeling means experientially? How does it differ from other meditative states like deep concentration or equanimity?**

Cessation in my experience is of two types. The first is more commonly reported by meditators as a very, very quick break in the continuity of consciousness. The mind becomes so still that it vanishes for a split second and then reappears. Often this is followed by an immense sense of relief and is said to coincide with the falling away of the 5 lower fetters which confers the attainment of stream entry. Whether the falling away of the fetters part is actually true or not thus conferring stream entry is something I am skeptical about lol. In the second type of cessation, the same process occurs but the duration of the cessation is much, much longer— lasting several minutes or hours. It produces the effect of a gradual reconstruction of the experiential field. 

This reconstruction phase, in my opinion, is a genuine and rare experience of reality prior to the arising of individuated consciousness, feeling and perception. It is entirely alien compared to ordinary perception. There— reality arises as dependent origination, the ‘building blocks’ you could say of individuated consciousness, feeling and perception. The effect of then emerging from this is indescribable. The purity of mind which follows seems sufficient for the attainment or partial attainment of the triple insight knowledge— knowledge of former existences, knowledge of the transmigration of beings and further knowledge of dependent origination thus destruction of the defilements. I have found none of the above possible through the very brief type of cessation.

**PAA: In Theravāda teachings, cessation is often linked to Nibbāna (nirvana). Do you see cessation as a glimpse into ultimate reality or simply a profound state of rest?**

A state of rest would mean that consciousness is present and thus resting. This is not the case in cessation which is an absence of consciousness. Cessation might be Nibbana. Many seem to believe this to be the case. I’m not sure. There isn’t consensus on what Nibbana is so it’s hard to say. Cessation opens a glimpse into what could be ultimate realities because it seems to be the transition phase between the individuated consciousness, feeling and perception and non-individuated reality free from both perception and feeling, which I call dependent origination. Reality at this point emerges as revelation and the nexus of defilements, ignorance and formations which generate the infinitude of individuated consciousnesses lost in samsara is 'seen and known.' 

**PAA: How can practitioners approach cessation without turning it into another goal to chase, given its subtlety and rarity?**

On one hand having it as a goal will give you the motivation to actually do the sufficient amount of sitting for it to arise. On the other it’s that very grasping which must be released in order for the mind to vanish. It’s hard to say because I’m not sure if my experiences are attributed to cessation, the practice I was doing or if they’re specific to me for unknown reasons. I’ve met other practitioners that have mentioned a similar process, but in their case it occurred on 5-meo DMT. I think it’s a worthwhile goal not because the vanishing and reappearance of consciousness in of itself is special, but because of what can occur after the fact. While it seems cessation doesn’t guarantee non-dual realization, I’ve met students and practitioners for whom this did occur as a result. 

## Past Life Recall

**PAA: Have past life memories surfaced for you during meditation? If so, how did they affect your understanding of karma or continuity of consciousness?**

I have a completely different view on it which in current form is not compatible with Theravada Buddhism. Recollection of past lives for me did not occur as mental pictures or images. The mind appeared as a room of screens and from these screens I would appear in a given mind and body of another life like a ghost in a machine. I could hear and know the person's thoughts, feelings and intentions. It was as real as waking life. From that room, or level of consciousness, it appeared that a larger consciousness system was playing or engaging in thousands upon thousands of incarnations simultaneously. 

The notion of linear time— past, present and future applies to the consciousness units or selves within space-time, but not to the levels of consciousness outside of it. Events within a given life reached and touched other lives elsewhere in time. It was not only linear but was quantum and entangled. It was revealed that the triple knowledge is not necessarily a one and done attainment, though for the Buddha it appears this was the case. The teachings also say however that he spent 7 weeks in meditation after his awakening. I doubt it was just to experience the bliss of the jhanas and am more inclined to believe he was exploring the mysteries of existence. 

**PAA: Do you think past life recall is a byproduct of deep meditation, or does it serve a functional purpose in spiritual development?**

It serves the purpose of generating dispassion which releases one from craving. When you see that everything you’ve tried, everything you’ve wanted to become, everything you’ve sought and everything you’ve attained is something you have done tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of times before, dispassion results. You either turn from Samsara as a result of this knowledge or you vow to become a Bodhisattva. 

**PAA: In Theravāda Buddhism, rebirth is a central concept. How do your personal experiences align with or challenge traditional views on this topic?**

Definitely there is rebirth. However Theravada Buddhism disavows the notion of soul as a refutation to the hindu doctrine of reincarnation. I have found indeed there is a soul or higher self. It’s just neither a singular thing nor is it a permanent, unchanging or immutable essence. There is a consciousness which is dreaming our waking life and a consciousness which is dreaming that consciousness. How far back it goes I really don’t know. I can only say what I’ve experienced and what I’ve remembered. 

## Non-Duality

PAA: Non-duality often emphasizes the absence of separation between self and other. How do you guide students who struggle to grasp this experientially?

Abandon self and ‘other’ vanishes. Abandon other and you find there’s only ‘Self.’ It has always been the same room of experience whether we call it Self or No-Self. Every ‘moment’ of every life was always reality. 

In describing the Bardo in the ‘American Book of the Dead’ author EJ Gold wrote “I’m either just a human primate who has become a little confused and lost and has somehow found themselves in an eternal condition or one of the 3 original Gods (Brahma, Shiva, Vishnu) that has awakened from an unusually abrupt nap…  I surrender to the knowledge that It will go on again and again over and over and yet since there is only one Creation in one moment, it will all be the same. With a feeling of blissful ecstasy I resign myself to no-change. No one will ever come along from ‘outside’ to bail me out or help me escape from here, there is no ‘outside.’ For ever and ever it will always be my trip.”

You are the universe sleeping. By your contact with the masters of consciousness your sleep is ending. Don’t worry about self and other. Don’t try to enter non-duality. Your field of experience is already non-dual. ‘Here’ is emptiness. Now is emptiness. Your body is emptiness. Your mind is emptiness. All things are illumination and even your problems are awake. There’s nothing to grasp but this. Now or at some point in time you will find you were never born and thereby the subjects of awakening and nirvana will be incinerated. You’ll find your heart was always the Buddha. 

## Integration After Awakening

**PAA: After awakening, how do you integrate profound insights into ordinary life without losing touch with them amidst daily distractions?**

There is one liberating insight— birthlessness. There is no life. No here. No there. No Samsara. No Nirvana— this realization is in fact Nirvana. There are no distractions. Whatever appears is actually your Self. There is nothing to integrate. The merging of heaven and earth is only the pouring of water into water. There is nothing to do outside the things you think you must do and although you must choose, whatever it is you become you decided upon before this life. What appears is Buddha and in truth nothing ever happened. This is freedom. Any other insight is relative. 

If you are sick, take medicine. If you are broke, try to make some more money. If you are sad, find a way through and to the best of your capacity restrain yourself from harming others. All this can be done outside the context of awakening so awakening altogether is a different animal. There is no lasting freedom in what happens. Freedom is freedom from happenings. Seeing in truth there are no events and there is no progress. 

Without this you will always be in time. 

## General Reflections

**PAA: Looking back on your journey so far—from childhood exposure to Buddhism to where you are now—what would you say was the most pivotal moment in shaping your spiritual path?**

When I was 19 years old I watched my father take his final breath. I realized in that moment life was not like the movies. That first noble truth of suffering left my heart nothing but a wasteland. For years I wandered in the desert of my life, trying to find myself and trying to realize spiritual enlightenment. I spent half my life on this journey of nearly 20 years. Often we seek enlightenment because we want our suffering to go away or because we believe deep within us somehow we can save and change the world and maybe we even can. My father said to me once “Son there are only two types of people in the world— people who serve themselves and people who serve others.”  

Appearing in the minds of the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas whose vows sustain the awakenings of all beings in countless worlds, I have surfed the fabric of Deity and still after all this time I’m neither as compassionate nor as patient as my father was. I try to live up to that teaching he gave me all those years ago but often even now I fail to. He told me that whatever it is I wanted in life, it was up to me to take it. Whatever I have done, I was only able to do so because of my Thai mother who brought me to Buddhism and my American father who told me to find my own answers to life’s questions. I can’t say I know much more than when I began. I’m not any more certain, but without a doubt I found what I sought and realized the things I wished for so many years to realize. 

**PAA: Thank you Ryan for your time in answering these questions. Greatl;y appreciated. **

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