---
title: "From Demonic Realm to Divine Providence: A Bardonist’s Path Through IIH, PME and Rosicrucian Mysteries"
url: https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/post/from-demonic-realm-to-divine-providence-a-bardonists-path-through-iih-pme-and-rosicrucian-mysteries/
date: 2026-02-11
modified: 2026-07-03
lang: en
author: "Perseus Arcane Academy"
description: "Introduction This interview with Gabriel Teixeira, I think will be of great interest to students of Franz Bardon. As topics not often mentioned within our Franz Bardon related interviews are..."
categories:
  - "Franz Bardon"
  - "Interviews"
image: https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/ChatGPT-Image-Feb-11-2026-05_27_04-PM-1024x683.png
word_count: 4340
---

# From Demonic Realm to Divine Providence: A Bardonist’s Path Through IIH, PME and Rosicrucian Mysteries

## Introduction

This interview with Gabriel Teixeira, I think will be of great interest to students of Franz Bardon. As topics not often mentioned within our Franz Bardon related interviews are brought up and expounded upon. There is also the possibility of a future live session with Gabriel if readers make their interest known. Please let us know your thoughts and any questions in the comments.

For those who would like to follow up on the work of Mr. Walter Ogris as mentioned in this interview you can find his website [here](https://archivhermetischertexte.at/).

---

![Light of Wisdom and Franz Bardon](https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/02/ChatGPT-Image-Feb-11-2026-05_27_04-PM-1024x683.png)

## Interview

**PAA: What brought you to the world of Magic, Hermetics and Franz Bardon? How did you begin your training?**

Well, I began to take an interest in magic from childhood. I was already born somewhat sensitive and could occasionally see ghosts. Although I was raised in a Christian household, I already carried some exotic ideas and behaviors from the spiritual realm from which I come. My first contact with energies and magic was through the MO-PAI system of John Chang (John Baharudin — the Magus of Java). I watched an excerpt from the documentary Ring of Fire, in which he demonstrated pyrokinesis and healing through chi emitted from his fingers. Shortly after watching the documentary, I got in touch with one of his students in order to receive instruction. Not long after that, I came across Mr. Bardon’s book (Initiation into Hermetics). From that point on, I began to practice—and I never stopped.

**PAA: During your training of IIH what specific areas did you find challenging? Did you do anything differently to overcome these challenges?**

I believe that if you carry heavy karma, or if you have a mission and destiny that run counter to any system of magical development, then all exercises can become a challenge. I came from the demonic realm, so my pact had been partially concluded, allowing me to become human again. However, because I still had a mission to fulfill, all the circumstances that afflicted my life were contrary to the system proposed by Mr. Bardon.

For those accustomed to Goetia, having to sit down and focus on a single thought, enter emptiness, work with the soul mirror, and so on, can be extremely challenging. The best way to overcome these adversities is to allow for adequate periods of rest, because Bardon’s exercises cause micro-injuries to the soul, and each person has a specific recovery time for the astral body to heal. Sometimes, practicing every day can actually delay progress.

Part of a person’s fate is recorded within their own astral body, so the exercises can accelerate destiny and karmic resolution. For this reason, for some beginners, all kinds of misfortune may occur when practicing these exercises, because you are interacting with the karmic records of your own soul when you do them. Therefore, the best advice is to respect your own recovery time between exercises and to progress with quality rather than haste.

**PAA: What are your thoughts about Step 1 and particularly VOM, some students spends years on this step. Do you think they are misunderstanding the requirements or do you think it is correct to stay on the step until students believe they have perfectly passed it?**

My opinion regarding the early grades of IIH is that they are initially focused on a form of astral and mental hygiene. Mr. Bardon wrote his first book as a kind of “prologue” to the contact with cosmic consciousness that comes in the second book. Therefore, the beginner should focus on the fact that, by practicing the exercises, you are preparing yourself to enter into contact with the geniuses of the higher spheres. This is not something you do without giving up your worst habits—you must change as a person as well. It is a gradual and initial transformation whose purpose is to prepare you for the next step ahead.

My second opinion is that the minimum amount of time Mr. Bardon recommends is more than sufficient to move forward, considering that Akasha meditation alone will exponentially expand many of the previously proposed exercises. The only exception is when you are practicing in order to balance your deficiencies. In that case, you may focus more on one exercise or another.

The third point is something I have already mentioned before: these exercises release negative karma recorded in the perispirit, so it is normal to have days when the exercises feel perfect and days when you are unable to progress. The ideal approach is to focus on a balanced quality in achieving the goals proposed by the exercises, rather than on extremes—as if Mr. Bardon were demanding that you become a great, infallible magician from the very beginning.

It is important to remember that all our actions are recorded in the Saturn zone of the Sun and in the Earth zone. When you feel that you are struggling with an exercise, pray—pray to Divine Providence. The Bardonist tradition has a legion of spirits who guard against degeneration: the Incandescent Sun of midday; Sata Pessajah (the Great Watcher); Ugolog (the Pure of the Pure); Aschmunadai; Ados; Laosa; the 49 officials of the Egyptian tradition; Iserag (who was worshiped in Greece for a long time), among others.
As Mr. Emil Stejnar discovered, Bardon’s entire system is oriented toward a kind of lost magical tradition whose purpose is communion with the stellar zone. There is no reason to think that you are alone on this path. This system is completely mystical and magical at the same time.

> Well, a student can only fully understand this exercise (depth point) if they receive a Mercurial or Saturnian initiation, so here is a bit of Mercurial initiation...
>
> Gabriel

**PAA: Depth Point is one of the key parts of the journey in my opinion. What can you tell us about this? Some students have trouble making a clear difference between projecting into a thing (Step 4 mental) and going into the depth point of a thing (Step 5).**

Well, a student can only fully understand this exercise if they receive a Mercurial or Saturnian initiation, so here is a bit of Mercurial initiation. Basically, transferring one’s consciousness into an object is meant to understand its visible relationship with the environment. Transferring one’s consciousness to the point of depth of something is meant to understand that object’s relationship with the matrix of the sphere in which it exists.

For all reality is connected by invisible laws to a central point. This central point is linked to parts of reality through concatenation. Thus, each of the six principal directions (above, below, right, left, front, back) is connected to a core that results from the interaction of these six directions.

For example, in the experiments of Mr. Emil Stejnar and Mr. Walter Ogris, they explain how the thought-cell I AM is formed. By imagining a six-pointed star, we can say that the way I AM interacts with each direction expands or diminishes the perception of I EXIST. Every interaction and friction is recorded simultaneously in the Mercury–Saturn zone and within the adept’s own astral body.

Therefore, the point of depth refers to the existence of a thing in relation to its surroundings. In other words, to be more didactic, it refers to how the growth of an apple tree’s roots interacts with other trees, with the soil, with water, and so on.

**PAA: Can you share anything about your first experience with a world or entity outside of yourself? Was this a shock to you or have you always been open to these ideas?**

I have had some experiences with astral travel, although this ability is not my primary one. I cannot recall the very first experience, but I do remember some that were quite impactful. One of them occurred when I was working with the Light of the midday Sun, using the Jewish Tikkun HaKlali. After some time of practice, the zone of the Egyptian god Khepri opened, and a few days later I was taken to a related spiritual zone.

I remember that when I was taken to this zone, I was accompanied by three other spirits. We were flying and passing through places that resembled luminous cathedrals. It was, so to speak, a radiant cathedral with multiple thresholds through which we passed very quickly.

After moving through these celestial cathedrals, we turned left and passed what would be the final portal. Then we entered the twilight zone. When I entered this zone, I was received by children who had bright orange eyes. They had small wings, as if they were little fairies. In theory, when you are working with a spirit, you eventually become accustomed to its energy, and everything that comes from it will seem normal to you. Therefore, I was not frightened by the experience.

As for evocation, I practiced it extensively throughout my entire path in Hermeticism. In the beginning, I was always fascinated by physical effects and Goetia. There was one evocation that caught me by surprise—it involved a genius of Aries. I was not yet fully prepared for its materialization, so I traced the seal in the air using my index finger, and the seal quickly pierced the sphere, producing a sound like the blast of a bomb. It was not very loud, but it was audible.

After this small explosion, two auxiliary ministers appeared. Because I was not prepared for the physical effect, I began to feel weak and nearly fainted, as the sphere of the being started feeding on everything around it. I then quickly gathered my will and presented my demands to it. This was a careless act, as I failed to take into account that at that moment I held special prerogatives for contact with the being.

**PAA: Let’s look at Step 8 and the jumping off point to work on PME or KTQ. Did you move on to these other books at this point or did you wait until you had more experience in Steps 9 and 10 before starting those books?**

I practiced all the grades of IIH, but I did not find it useful for me to practice the ninth or tenth grades with the same intensity as the others. Therefore, I practiced intensively up to the eighth grade, and I approached the ninth and tenth with much less intensity before moving directly on to the second book

**PAA: Following the last question, what came first for you, PME or KTQ, and why?**

For me, PME came first. I did not practice the third book, as I learned a different type of Qabbalah from the geniuses—one that is very similar to the one Mr. Walter Ogris also learned and partially expresses through his talismans. I believe that, for the external public, Mr. Walter Ogris is the greatest living Bardonist.

Naturally, I could not speak about Mr. Emil Stejnar out of respect for the Law of Silence and for the information that was delivered by the Mercury zone at that time.
In Mercurial magic, it is common for an adept’s magical work to interact with the magical work of other adepts, given the “communicator” nature of Mercury/Hermes. As a result, I ended up interacting with and discovering “small magical secrets” from other practitioners—not personal matters, but functional ones. At the time, I came across aspects of Mr. Emil Stejnar’s magical work that helped me in my own practice, even though I do not know him personally. I also gained access to a small fragment of Mr. Walter Ogris’s magical knowledge.

I consider Mr. Walter Ogris’s Qabbalah to be the most elegant and the one that most fully respects all the laws of the Earth zone—especially because it goes beyond the laws of quality and quantity taught by Bardon and makes use of certain laws taught in the Mercury zone, such as: name, form, mode of manifestation, implicit codes, external symbolic representation, the Qabbalah of the sphere, energy signature, and so on. Although I do not know whether he himself uses these exact terms to describe the Qabbalah he applies when crafting a talisman, these names are concepts we learn from the spirits of Mercury. Therefore, it is possible that he learned them under different names.

> I believe that Mr. Bardon’s Qabbalah (KTQ) is exoteric because the judges of the zone that surrounds the Earth would not allow the revelation of other missing keys.
>
> Gabriel

**PAA: You believe Bardon’s Qabbalah is exoteric rather than esoteric. What do you mean by that distinction, and what makes Bardon’s presentation “exoteric” in your view?**

I believe that Mr. Bardon’s Qabbalah (KTQ) is exoteric because the judges of the zone that surrounds the Earth would not allow the revelation of other missing keys. Therefore, what we have there is a reutilization of knowledge that already existed publicly beforehand (and thus does not violate the Law of Silence). Master Bardon added one or two laws in order to make that Qabbalah function in a way that would not conflict with the established laws.

In other words, it is a Qabbalah that Master Bardon created for the general audience of his two previous books. I do not believe that he used this Qabbalah for complex matters or for workings involving spherical signatures (a sensitive and secret topic). Given this explanation, it is an exoteric Qabbalah that does not require initiation.

**PAA: You’ve said some beings mentioned in Bardon’s own work do not like “this Qabbalah.” Which kinds of beings react negatively, and why would a being object to that approach?**

I believe they dislike this Qabbalah because it lacks precision. One can easily commit excesses and acts of disrespect with it, which in occultism we would say “weighs” on one’s karma. In addition to that, other keys necessary for the proper use of this Qabbalah were not included. I believe Bardon expected many of these doubts to be clarified through contact with the beings themselves.

I have known some Bardonist magicians who ruined their lives by practicing this Qabbalah in a very disrespectful and incorrect manner. Magicians who follow the path of authoritarianism always end up being abandoned by others.

**PAA: You mentioned working for many years pursuing criminals “together with the Judges of Mercury,” using evocations to achieve physical effects. Who are the Judges of Mercury in your framework, and what makes them suited to that kind of work?**

You can easily contact the Judges of Mercury through the seals of the 72 geniuses of Mr. Quintscher. They are the best sources for providing precise information when you need to understand decisions or effects in other spheres. Mercury is truly omnipresent and omniscient—you can know anything, about anyone, and on any subject. They are also excellent when it comes to obtaining missions in service of Divine Providence.

**PAA: When you say “physical effects,” what range are we talking about — information acquisition, movement of probability, visible external phenomena, direct influence on matter, or something else?**

External and recognizable magical phenomena to the uninitiated—in other words, thaumaturgy. There is nothing that frightens a criminal more than standing before an inexplicable phenomenon. When a criminal witnesses the manifestation of magic, they are usually filled with fear.

**PAA: If you could add three “advanced but practical” pillars of content that most people aren’t addressing, what would they be (and what would each article do for the reader)?**

The I-consciousness of Franz Bardon—remembering that you are a spiritual being within a worldly manifestation.
Akasha (or emptiness) meditation.
Interdependence.
When properly applied, Akasha meditation can neutralize a great deal of negative karma and prolong one’s life, as it brings genuine balance. I-consciousness meditation helps reduce neuroses and strengthen attention. Awareness of the law of interdependence reminds us that all phenomena are interconnected, so that everything that happens is an effect resulting from the sum of our directed or unconscious actions.

**PAA: What topics do you think should not be published publicly — because they reliably lead to harm, obsession, or karmic problems — even if they’re technically real?**
Topics related to sphere magic, advanced Qabbalah, and the laws of Mercurial sentence defense.

**PAA: If you were planning a content series that bridges theory to practice, what would the progression look like from beginner-safe to advanced — and where do most blogs get the sequencing wrong?**

I believe that Mr. Bardon’s system is already sufficiently solid; however, I would add more explanations about methods of energy cultivation. I would also include more material on the laws of the Earth zone and on mystical and purity-oriented spirits. I think that people, in general, do not clearly understand the implications of their magical actions, nor how much these actions can damage their next incarnation if proper care is not taken. An explanation of this would be extremely important.

**PAA: Bardon’s work is sometimes described as being “supervised by the spirits he left behind” (linked to the second book). How do you understand that supervision in practice — and what forms can “permission” or “prohibition” take for a practitioner or teacher?**

Well, for those who practice a very authoritarian form of magic, focused mainly on the fulfillment of worldly desires, access to negative spirits becomes easier. In this way, the initiate either learns more quickly through pain or is swiftly led to be corrected by life itself. Those who truly understand what lies behind Mr. Bardon’s knowledge, on the other hand, are guided by the Great White Brotherhood, by the Rosicrucians, by the Egyptian system, and so on.

Bardon’s system is supervised in the sense that it allows the poor practitioner to quickly encounter the Judges, while the good practitioner finds compassionate assistance along the path. The Bardon system contains certain “traps” related to authoritarian magic and subjugation, which the practitioner only realizes once they have already been condemned to ostracism by the Judges—or when they no longer have any health left.

**PAA: If Divine Providence ultimately permits or forbids outcomes, how should a magician balance personal will, responsibility, and humility — especially when working Bardon’s system?**

The practitioner must remember that no matter how much power they attain, there is always a higher zone above them (the paracosmos). They must remember that no matter how much knowledge they acquire, there will always be something they do not know. And they must remember that Divine Providence is not merely an agent, but an entity. Just as the adept may believe they can interfere according to their own will, a higher zone can also interfere in their magical work if it judges it to have become too degenerate.
Humility, always.

**PAA: Presenting Bardon’s work publicly can be difficult because we may “have to give an account” of our actions. What specific ethical lines should teachers and publishers be aware of when presenting Bardon-related material?**

Inner reform and the soul mirror. Being able to look into your own soul and tell the truth about the intentions behind your actions. No one doubts the goodness of a sweet and innocent child—the Judges wish to look upon the magician in the same way. Good attracts good; evil attracts evil. Selfishness attracts selfishness; altruism attracts altruism. No one can escape themselves.
The ethics of our actions lie in observing the effects produced by both our magical practices and our ordinary actions up to this point. If they satisfy us and lift the weight from our conscience, then all is well—at least if we err, it will be out of ignorance, not from pleasure in doing harm. But if, when facing their own actions, the practitioner feels shame for what they have become and for what they have done, then something must be corrected.

**PAA: Bardon had no monetary interest — his work was compassion and mission — yet magicians still need to charge fairly. Where is the line between fair exchange and “dangerous ground” when money touches Bardon’s teachings, in your view?**

Desire and attachment are poison. The money a magician charges for something they offer should come from what they perceive as fair and balanced, without extremes. If they begin to charge solely for the pleasure (desire) of money, then decline begins. One should charge what is considered fair, aiming at harmony, and keep the desire for money in a secondary place.

There are many cases in which charging for a magical service serves as a way for a person to pay for negative karma they have generated, and in other cases it serves as a way for the person to replace trials and suffering with the merit of acquiring a magical service or knowledge.
But fundamentally, when you keep the desire for money out of the equation, you are far more likely to charge a fair and just value for magic.

**PAA: Clairalience can develop without being directly pursued. What practices were you doing when it emerged, and what does that suggest about how Bardon-style training can awaken faculties indirectly?**

I believe that emptiness meditation can develop an incalculable number of gifts, especially because it allows the energy reservoirs to be filled with vital energy in a calm and balanced way. I believe that the internal rearrangement of this energy can awaken powers that are still unknown to us.
My clairalience emerged from excessive use of psychometry. As I am naturally sensitive, that sensitivity itself seems to draw forth other gifts whenever it feels the need to complement the experience.

**PAA: You mentioned learning dances that “evoke beings or powers without the need for words.” How do you understand the mechanism — what is the dance doing that replaces verbal formulae, and what risks should someone consider before exploring it?**

Dance, bodily movements, hand gestures, guttural sounds, and similar pr actices are another form of Qabbalah. Together with drawn Qabbalah, they are among the most refined and elegant forms of Qabbalistic practice. Formulas that rely solely on the voice tend to reduce the magician’s life force, because they consume kinetic energy, and their compensatory attribute (counter-effect) causes the magician to physically feel the energy they evoke through words—thus shortening lifespan and consuming a significant amount of Jing.

When one dances or draws, the attribute of energetic exchange tends to be distributed more evenly throughout the physical body, which reduces or even nullifies the collateral effects of the spoken formula.
This type of practice is better learned through initiation from a being, rather than attempting to extract “illegal” movements from the Akasha and ending up using an illegitimate form of Qabbalah.
I am of the opinion that Mr. Bardon himself preferred hand gestures.

**PAA: Some beings can be bad-tempered or sarcastic. Beyond the humor, what does spirit “temperament” teach about working responsibly — especially boundaries, protocol, and avoiding projecting human expectations onto beings?**

This is an indirect warning to magicians who work heavily within the laws of sovereignty and force. Treating a being as if it were your subject is not a good path. Remembering that a spirit is a living being and shares in the same life force as you will always lead to a more pleasant and less problematic experience.

Mr. Bardon already hinted, between the lines of his second work, that some beings can “take revenge.” Many of them also possess knowledge that they do not reveal to you.
A good example occurred once when I was speaking with André Consciência shortly after performing a Lunar evocation. The spirit was still nearby when it noticed a message André had sent me. Immediately, the lunar spirit made a joke that only André would understand—about how ironic it is for someone who works with words to be unable to find the right expressions for things.
Therefore, a respectful approach toward beings is always the best course of action.

**PAA: You recently shared posts in the Students of Franz Bardon Facebook group with a connection to a Rosicrucian egregore. Could you share more about that connection and why it matters for practice?**

According to my research, Mr. Bardon worked directly with the “morning sun,” alchemy, and the assistance of invisible beings who comforted him during moments of suffering. In his novel Frabato the Magician, Mr. Bardon describes a scene in which Urgaya appears in the Assembly of Communion. Since I encountered the spirit of the “pure essence” of the White Pelican, I have not been able to avoid the feeling that URGAYA URANIA is, in fact, one of the elder brethren of the Great White Brotherhood.

Dion Fortune also encountered the secret fraternity and referred to them as the “Occult Police.” From that point onward, I was able to observe correlations among several organizations operating under different names, yet all beneath the same central symbol—a sun among clouds. Because of this realization, I changed the direction of my magical work, turning more toward what Mr. Emil Stejnar had been working on in secrecy for several years, even if perhaps not directly.

No adept can enter higher spheres without the purest alchemy, nor without respecting the solar law of the Earth Zone clock—the positions assumed by the Sun in the early morning, at midday, and in the late afternoon. The Sun in these positions, the stellar zone, the Moon, and the waters of the sign of Pisces together form the axis of Mr. Bardon’s Egyptian (or Chaldean, if you prefer) magic, derived from the Cult of the Light of Horeb and many other matters that cannot be spoken of here.

But certainly, the magician who seeks communion with the most refined beings will correctly understand Mr. Bardon’s works and will be able to clearly perceive the correlations among the Rosicrucians, Mr. Alois Mailänder, Joséphin Péladan, Helena Blavatsky, Urgaya, Stanislas de Guaita and others.

**PAA: Lastly, please add anything you feel we have missed in these questions.**

Happiness! Magic exists to make our existence more radiant, comforting, and happy. To make our days warmer, and so that we always have a safe place to rest. Magical powers and spiritual experiences are secondary. If there is no happiness, none of that truly matters. May our hearts be filled with the radiant light of love, and may our days be long, joyful, and full of uplifting experiences. May Divine Providence always look upon us with compassion, and may we never lose our innocence and our hope. May Divine Providence bless us with Its Grace, today and always.

**PAA: Inspiring information, thank you very much for taking part and for providing these very detailed answers.**

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