---
title: "Dragon Rouge: An Interview with Founder Dr Thomas Karlsson"
url: https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/post/dragon-rouge-an-interview-with-founder-dr-thomas-karlsson/
date: 2025-11-05
modified: 2026-07-03
lang: en
author: "Perseus Arcane Academy"
description: "Introduction In this interview Dr Thomas Karlsson the founder of the Dragon Rouge answers questions about the order and provides clarity as to what the order actually believes in and..."
categories:
  - "Interviews"
tags:
  - "Left Hand Path"
  - "Magic"
image: https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/LqdSSqy5A2Snp7Fcy6MUHd-1024x640.jpg
word_count: 3205
---

# Dragon Rouge: An Interview with Founder Dr Thomas Karlsson

## Introduction

In this interview Dr Thomas Karlsson the founder of the Dragon Rouge answers questions about the order and provides clarity as to what the order actually believes in and what it practices. Founded in 1989, Dragon Rouge is one of the longest running Left-Hand Path Orders in the world. Huge thanks to Thomas Karlsson PhD for spending the time in answering our questions.

Learn more about Dr Thomas Karlsson, the founder of the Dragon Rouge [here](https://thedragonrouge.com/). You can also read about the Dragon Rouge philosophy [here](https://thedragonrouge.com/philosophy/).

*Featured image credit: [Dragon Rouge 2019 Year of Preparation. - Dragon Rouge](https://thedragonrouge.com/dragon-rouge-2019-year-of-preparation/)*

---

![](https://staging13.perseusarcaneacademy.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/Screenshot-2025-11-05-185017-1024x442.png)

## Interview with Dr Thomas Karlsson

**PAA: Founding Vision: Dragon Rouge was founded in 1989 by a small group of magicians,with a “Faustian thirst to explore the nightside of existence” and an ethos of chivalry guiding its inception. How did these founding principles shape the Order’s early identityand philosophy? In what ways do the ideas of chivalric honor and Faustian drive continue to influence Dragon Rouge’s approach to the Left-Hand Path today?**

The idea of a truth-seeking knighthood on a lifelong quest for knowledge and power was with us from the beginning. Our occult studies had the operas of Richard Wagner as their soundtrack. We wanted to set the level of ambition high and strive for true camaraderie and a striving beyond the theatrical and over-individualistic that characterized much of the Left-Hand Path. Our attitude was that truth and power require the deepest dedication and are a lifelong process. Life is a struggle and one can only be successful if one cooperates with others. We also wanted to turn away from the traits of escapism that are found in occultism. True occultism is demanding and not a comfortable escape from reality. That is why occultism is not suitable for everyone, but must take place within the framework of a serious initiatory Order. The author H.P. Lovecraft put it well with the words: " 'We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.' For those who hear Lilith's whispers, however, it is a call to seek the black seas of infinity.

For us, occultism is something that requires action. Therefore, temple building has been a central theme for Dragon Rouge. It is both an inner and an outer temple building. Dragon Rouge came into being after what we call the UR prophecy that I received in Marrakech, Morocco in 1989. It is described in my book The Mephistophelian Trilogy, published by Editorial Manus Sinistra. An older man came to me and said the cryptic words: "Old temples will fall. New temples will be built. Temples to the Red Dragon". I did not get an explanation then and there what he meant and was very confused, but I took these words with me to Sweden and founded Dragon Rouge together with a number of like-minded people.

The Faustian tradition teaches us that knowledge has a price and we must be prepared to pay it in the form of devotion, time and loyalty. It also teaches us that, like Faust, we must turn to the dark forces to achieve enlightenment.

> According to Dragon Rouge, there are powers, intelligences, and realities infinitely more powerful than what humans can comprehend.
>
> Thomas Karlsson

**PAA: Mythic Draconian Tradition: The Order describes the Draconian Tradition as “universalistic,” claiming roots in myths worldwide where “the forces of darkness give humanity access to illumination.” Could you elaborate on this concept? What does it mean in practice that the Dragon is seen as an objective reality “beyond good and evil,” and how does this mythic outlook inform Dragon Rouge’s core philosophy and purpose?**

Dragon Rouge is based on the premise that there are 1) objective truths, 2) that we only have limited knowledge of. Occultism became increasingly relativized with various systems during the 20th century and even dark esotericism advocated ideas such as "my truth is not your truth" and that we should search within ourselves for our personal truth. This leads to a limitation of truth-seeking and our personal quest.

According to Dragon Rouge, there are powers, intelligences, and realities infinitely more powerful than what humans can comprehend.

We do not deny of course that there are cultural and personal interpretations of the truths, but instead of being called Temple of X or Church of X with some culturally marked orientation such as Old Norse, Judeo-Christian, Ancient Egyptian or Indian, our focus has been the underlying archaic principles that are the same in all times and cultures. Hence our Order has the name of a principle that is universal.

The dragon as a figure exists in all times and cultures, but is then strongly influenced by cultural interpretations. To generalize, the Dragon is often seen as evil in the West and good in the East. The true power referred to as the Dragon is beyond concepts such as evil and good.

Some people have claimed that The Draconian Path is too eclectic and that we should focus on one historical tradition, for example the Nordic. But I would claim we are non-eclectic and rather perennialists, with the premise that Truth is beyond any geographic or historic contexts. Our academic and theoretical basis for this can be found in thinkers like Carl Gustaf Jung (1875 - 1961) and especially Mircea Eliade (1907 - 1986,), but also to some extent René Guénon (1886–1951), Frithjof Schuon (1907–1998), Titus Burckhardt 1908–1984) and others.

The Truth is The Power far beyond humans. We are, in the eyes of Intelligences in the 11-dimensions, still primitive, although they gave us the fire, utensils, the writing language, and the knowledge to build high cultures with temples from some of these intelligences. But since 2012 they are here again, for some time. And we must learn and develop now!

Carl Gustaf Jung showed how we are both individuals, family, tribes, nations, humans and Life Force/General Energy (The Dragon's Breath). Our mission is to work in accordance to old promises and pacts made by Man and these Intelligences/Fallen Angels, that have given us access to hidden dimensions, from the Garden of Eden and the Fruits of Knowledge to the UR-prophecy of Dragon Rouge. Our mission is to open up the gates to the hidden dimension to those who are ready, and this is beyond the normal concepts of Mankind. That is why Science is something we see as the foremost ally to Dark Esotericism. It brings us closer to the nectar of the Fruits Knowledge and the Fruits of Life, and makes us divine, as The Serpent promised in Genesis 3:5.

> The problem with the idea of a middle path is that it doesn’t generate power. It becomes a lukewarm middle path and a vague non-choice for people who can’t make up their minds.
>
> Thomas Karlsson

**PAA: Left-Hand Path Defined: Dragon Rouge openly identifies as a Left-Hand Path order, a path historically associated with “dark and sinister archetypes”, forbidden knowledge, and antinomian (law-breaking) spirituality. How does Dragon Rouge define the Left-Hand Path in its own context? In what ways do you dispel common misconceptions about working with “dark” or adversarial symbolism, and instead frame it as a route to wisdom and empowerment?**

One of the definitions of the Left-Hand Path is antinomianism, which means "against the law", from the Ancient Greek words "anti" (ἀντί), meaning "against," and "nomos" (νόμος), meaning "law". In a theological context, it refers to the belief that God's grace, or Lucifer's revolt, frees believers from the necessity of obeying religious law. Antinomianism has many meanings. In mysticism both in the East and the West, it has denoted an attitude that the divine is beyond all categories, rites, and rules, and can only be experienced through direct contact with the divine. The Aghori cult and the Indian Vamachara are examples of Left-Hand Path and antinomianism, but it has also been present in the Christian mystical tradition, not least among Gnostics, but also later in e.g. Antinomy, a sect of this sort that arose in Germany in 1535, and in the circle around the Russian mystic Grigori Yefimovitch Rasputin (1869 - 1916). Rasputin was part of the antinomianist Khlysty sect which believed that a person can only achieve God's grace by first sinning so deeply that one reaches his bottom. The method was eroto-mysticism and the doctrine that one was nearest God when feeling “holy passionlessness”.

Antinomianism will always be accused of being a form of criminal activity. Either as accusation and smearing, or because there are sometimes also connections. An example is the Sala Gang and The Magic Circle in Sweden in the early 20th century. They mixed a theosophically inspired Left-Hand Path and serious crimes. This is well described in the book Manhunter, The Story of the Swedish Occultist and Serial Killer Thurneman (2020) by the author Wulvaricht.

The Left-Hand Path is a method and not a goal. It is defined antinomian, but also apotheosis, self-deification. The goal is to penetrate the 11 hidden dimensions and meet the Great Dragon, the seven-headed Intelligence beyond the conceivable and graspable. The Left-Hand Path is a science of what lies beyond the boundaries of Life. Therefore, Death and Darkness are central motifs within the Left-Hand Path. The path teaches us to face the fear of Nothingness and fill it with power and knowledge. It is a frightening path at times but also a path of bliss and ecstasy.

A topic that comes up regularly is the "middle path". The problem with the idea of a middle path is that it doesn’t generate power. It becomes a lukewarm middle path and a vague non-choice for people who can’t make up their minds. All serious paths strive for both balance and dynamism. I’ve met so many who use the middle path as a kind of compromise solution and an excuse to avoid truly awe-inspiring spiritual work

To walk the Left-Hand Path requires maintaining high morals and living by chivalric virtues, otherwise it can destroy the practitioner. It is a path that breaks boundaries and leads to extremes of wisdom and madness, destruction and creation. The Qliphotic Initiations are a way to explore the great Unknown in a structured way with the guidance of those who have gone before you.

**PAA: Initiatory Curriculum Structure: Dragon Rouge’s initiatory system is structured around the Qliphothic “Tree of Death,” with the first degrees named Lilith, Gamaliel, and Samael – each roughly corresponding to a year of training and a specific focus. Could you outline how the curriculum is organized across these stages? For instance, what kinds of practices or experiences are emphasized in the Lilith stage (earthly and dream work), versus Gamaliel (astral and lunar magic) and Samael (confrontational inner alchemy) as an initiate progresses?**

An open question within Dragon Rouge is whether the dark adept is predestined to be on the dark path and the Left-Hand Path. It has been speculated that we carry a calling within us that at specific times in life is heeded by the powers that be. We call it Lilith's whispers, when we hear a call from the Great Unknown, what in Dante's Divina Commedia is described as the dark forest where the sun's rays do not reach. If we choose to find our way through the forest towards the entrance to Inferno, Lilith's cave, we have begun a lifelong search for truth, wisdom, beauty and power.

When we have made a decision to begin this journey after having broadened ourselves with foundational knowledge, we are ready to enter Lilith's cave. There is a strong eroto-mysticism in the Qliphotic Initiation. Lilith's cave is also her vagina, which is both a tomb and a womb. We die and are reborn during this process, as in the original Egyptian alchemy, al-Khemeia, where the god Khepera descends into the underworld to die and be reborn as his own creation. Alchemy originally means "the dark art" or "the work of the black stone". The goal of the initiations is to refine the soul step by step through trials and resistance, and through the pressure of the eons to transform carbon in its loose form of graphite, into its hardest form as diamond. A process that the alchemists also described as how the Self is refined from lead to gold.

Benoit Mandelbrot's theories of the existence of 11 dimensions are constantly present in the Dragon Rouge initiation system. Our system is not a path of self-development and self-improvement that we encounter in a majority of Western occult orders. We strive for a total experience of existence, beyond the four dimensions of time and space that man usually finds himself in. The first four initiations are a preparation for the first great Initiation in the Black Sun, Thagirion degree 5, which is beyond time and space. This sphere is called the Hall of the 1001 Gates, NOXXON, the Land beyond the Horizon and the Eternal Atlantis.

In Gamaliel degree 2, the adept explores dreams and the astral worlds. Extensive work with our Shadow takes place here. We are here in the Lilith womb, also called the Lilith lake, inside the first great cave. We learn directly from Lilith and her demons, as well as from each other and intensive study and practical magical work. We work with traditional tools of witchcraft, such as invocations, automatic writing, sigils, crystal balls, black mirrors, incense and potions, magical objects, etc. etc.

For the first three initiations there is written material, but it is supplemented with lectures for the initiates and circles where experiences and knowledge are shared, as well as degree-specific magical work.

**PAA: Creativity, Art and Magic: The Order seems to place value on artistic and creative expression as part of the magical path – for instance, music, visual art, and even fragrances have been mentioned as “vital technologies for crossing the veil and embodying magical states.” How does Dragon Rouge incorporate art and creativity into its esoteric work? Are there examples of Order-sponsored music, artwork, or creative ritual design that illustrate the synergy between artistic inspiration and occult practice in the Draconian tradition?**

Art is absolutely central to Draconian Esotericism. It captures aspects of existence that we would otherwise not be able to perceive. A quote from Friedrich Nietzsche is instructive when it comes to the Left-Hand Path and its antinomianism: "And those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music.”

The occult is not secrecy for secrecy's sake. Superficial occultism talks about a lot of secrets that are in practice just promotion and nothing substantial. The occult is hidden because we have not yet mastered it. Just as it is difficult for a beginner to understand what it is like to be a piano virtuoso, it is difficult for the uninitiated to perceive the hidden dimensions.

Creativity is a result of channeling both the destructive and creative aspects of the Draconian force. Art in its various forms gives us an opportunity to channel knowledge and insight into the hidden, and to operate in dimensions beyond time and space.

Practical magic takes place in harmony with Time and its laws. Time, however, has different forms. In ancient Greek philosophy, Kronos and Kairos represent two different concepts of time. Kronos is the chronological and quantitative time that we measure with clocks. It is also the time of the zodiac and planets, the solar and lunar calendar. This time is governed by the god Chronos or Saturn as the Romans called him. It is the karmic time that obeys the law of cause and effect, and the laws of Newtonian physics. It is a time that is governed by the Black Sun which itself is, however, beyond time and space.

Kairos, on the other hand, denotes qualitative and a critical time – a moment of decisive opportunity or the right moment for action. It is the state of Satori in Zen, and what has been called Flow by the psychologist Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi. Or what the French philosopher Henri Berson called Duration (la durée). This Time is first possible to explore and experience through the Fifth and the Sixth dimensions.Therefore, the source of creativity is beyond time and space and radiates from the Black Sun and Thagirion.

**PAA: Enduring Legacy: Dragon Rouge is noted as “one of the longest running Left-Hand Path orders in the world.” Having been active for over three decades, how has the Order managed to stay relevant amid changing trends in occultism and spirituality? Are there ways in which the focus or activities of Dragon Rouge have evolved from the early 1990s to the present? We’re curious if the challenges faced or the kind of seekers attracted to the Draconian path have changed in the modern era compared to the Order’s beginnings.**

Dragon Rouge is based on structures and patterns that are archaic and therefore not bound to time and space, different cultures and trends. We caught a unique torch when we were founded in 1989. It is something that we will carry with us into the future. During periods, the work may shift, there may be times of ebb and times of flood, but the core is unchangeable. It lies beyond the human. We swear pacts to powers beyond the human and are loyal to them. However, we came at the right time in history. With 2012, a crack opened between the dimensions that correspond to when man received fire from Prometheus, and knowledge from the Serpent in Eden and the Fallen Angels.

Some speculate that AI is our new fire. Personally, I doubt it. The knowledge that man has the opportunity to receive is beyond the material and the technological. At the same time, I believe that a combination of biology, technology and spirituality can be our great Faustian challenge. It is only when biology is present that some form of intelligence manifests life force, what is called vril, odic force and kundalini. That was what the Fallen Angels sought in humans. They sought flesh while humans sought spirit. Through their union the Dark Way was born.

My father taught me a lot that I have benefited from in my esoteric studies. He was an intellectual atheist and worked as Head of IBM Scandinavia's research and education department. Thirty years before Smartphones, he told me that such phones would come in the future. He told me about quantum computers already in the 80s, so it is probably no coincidence that IBM developed the first quantum computer. He introduced me to quantum physics and chaos mathematics. When I turned 15 he gave me The Tao of Physics by Fritjof Capra as a birthday gift.

Quantum biology and the qubits of quantum computers open up possibilities for knowledge of dimensions beyond the four we usually find ourselves in. But the torch from the Temple of Atlantis must be preserved and continue to burn for man to have any contact with the forces of the Great Unknown, from the Great Dragon. The inner Order of the Dragon Rouge, the Ordo Draconis, is the protector of the torch. Now and in the future.

**PAA: Thank you very much for spending the time and answering the questions in such detail.**

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